wednesday's the day (1 Viewer)

[Stuart Little]

snakybus (06 Mar, 2002 02:40 p.m.):

Stuart: Such a lack of faith in people! So what, uneducated people shouldn't be allowed to vote? Be careful there, what you deem to be an educated viewpoint may be stupidity in disguise, and vice versa. There is no question that democracy is a flawed process, but it's probably the one that's the least flawed. Apart from a totalitarian regime in which I am supreme dictator-for-life, but I digress. Australia has mandatory voting. Once you're over 18, you vote or you get fined. And it works.

I knew someone was going to interpret my comment like that.

My point is that when people who care about or understand an issue cast a vote, we are seeing democracy in action.
Force someone who has no understanding or no interest in the issue and we are seeing ignorance being given a voice, a voice that can dictate the social and/or political environment of the entire country.
Ideally the populace of Ireland would have a good understanding of serious matters like this current referendum, but in reality they don't, be it through their own apathy, lack of readily available information or (as in many cases) an unwillingness to get embroiled in what is a very sensitive issue depending on who you're talking to.

Maybe I don't have faith in people in general - but in all honesty - they haven't done anything to vindicate themselves in recent history. I look at America, and what can happen when a nation ignorant of world affairs, by supporting their government unequivocally can wreak havoc the world over.
Manipulating the public is what governments do, to stay in power, to further their agendas etc. and more and more today the public is becoming susceptible to this manipulation.
Forcing people to vote is giving more strength to the capabilities of this kind of marketing/manipulation

Yaknowwhati'msayin?

 

[DogEggs]

who said "education education education"?

 

[Dan]

To answer your question, Yes. As Kirstie said, the divorce referendum, people who voted got to change the constitution. Its a country of 3.5 million people Egg, lets stick to reality here, everyones little whims can't be tended to, but if you feel strongly enough about something, through a lot of work you may be able to change something. Things are by no means perfect, but how often is anything perfect.

Basically, I do feel I can decide my future. Got over the victim complex.

egg_ (06 Mar, 2002 02:40 p.m.):

Dan (06 Mar, 2002 01:04 p.m.):
Millions of people around the world would love to have the right to do decide their future in their own countries

Do we have the right to decide our own future? Do the majority of people in Ireland think that we should be part of the PPF? Is there anybody I can vote for in the next general election that is offering an economic policy that I am even vaguely comfortable with?

Irish 'democracy' is better than being tortured by death squads, but some real say in How Things Are Done would be even better

if there's nobodies policies you agree with, do something about it or stop complaining.

What? Start a revolution? Join Fianna Fail?

 

[snap-apple]

kirstie (06 Mar, 2002 03:21 p.m.):

conor (06 Mar, 2002 03:01
i don't think any of the referenda/ge's in my lifetime have had any impact on the "system" - the only way to change the system is revolution -

Yeah. Right.
Do you remember the little referendum we all voted in a few years back - those of us who cared? It was called the divorce referendum. And it was passed and written into law. A pretty huge constitutional and socially indicative change for this country I'd have said.

as i said, i voted in it. but i wouldn't call it a change in the system - definitely a change in law. and it hasn't changed my life. you can appreciate how little politics means to me. it's just words in the newspaper. i don't think it affects my day-to-day life in any major way.
all the parties that have a chance of getting in to power are by and large going to run the country in a similar way and by-and-large our laws are going to become more and more liberal as society does and as we become more americanised and involved in a federal europe.
i reckon all this will happen with or without me relying on my ma to register me to vote. this is why i get pissed the way such a big deal is made about these things. the way you jumped down my throat for flippintly posting the fact that i wan't registered. the way you think the divorce referendum was a pivotal moment in irish life. it's all late late show-talk. bleedin politics...

 

[snakybus]

Stuart Little (06 Mar, 2002 03:37 p.m.):

snakybus (06 Mar, 2002 02:40 p.m.):

Stuart: Such a lack of faith in people! So what, uneducated people shouldn't be allowed to vote? Be careful there, what you deem to be an educated viewpoint may be stupidity in disguise, and vice versa. There is no question that democracy is a flawed process, but it's probably the one that's the least flawed. Apart from a totalitarian regime in which I am supreme dictator-for-life, but I digress. Australia has mandatory voting. Once you're over 18, you vote or you get fined. And it works.

I knew someone was going to interpret my comment like that.

My point is that when people who care about or understand an issue cast a vote, we are seeing democracy in action.
Force someone who has no understanding or no interest in the issue and we are seeing ignorance being given a voice, a voice that can dictate the social and/or political environment of the entire country.
Ideally the populace of Ireland would have a good understanding of serious matters like this current referendum, but in reality they don't, be it through their own apathy, lack of readily available information or (as in many cases) an unwillingness to get embroiled in what is a very sensitive issue depending on who you're talking to.

Maybe I don't have faith in people in general - but in all honesty - they haven't done anything to vindicate themselves in recent history. I look at America, and what can happen when a nation ignorant of world affairs, by supporting their government unequivocally can wreak havoc the world over.
Manipulating the public is what governments do, to stay in power, to further their agendas etc. and more and more today the public is becoming susceptible to this manipulation.
Forcing people to vote is giving more strength to the capabilities of this kind of marketing/manipulation

Yaknowwhati'msayin?

Is this message board crashing again? This is the fourth time I've posted this.

Sure I know what you're saying Stewey baby, and I didn't misinterpret you. Maybe for a referendum that involves such complex issues you have a point - people who have no opinion or don't care or whatever could stay home and wallow in their own ignorance and ambivalence. But is every vote this complex? Not at all. Most of the time you're just asked to vote for a politician to get into office. Maybe mandatory voting would get people off their arses and make them inform themselves.

But irregardless of this, I accept that this is a difficult issue (mandatory voting I mean). You're right, it could be viewed as an imposition on public freedom to fine people who don't vote, but would you say the same about fines for littering and parking violations? Who knows, maybe you do, and fair enough if you do. But if you're interested in democracy, these things are part of it. Why not mandatory voting too?

And about what you said about your about faith in people - you seem to care about humanity, and your concern about America's current attempt to fuck up humankind suggests this. That in turn suggests to me that you actually do have faith in people - unless you're completely apathetic and casting your hands in the air and going "fuck the world, they're all a bunch of lovable idiots. Blow them to shit". If you have concern for people, you have respect for them . If you have respect for them, you have faith in them. A democracy is a government for the people, of the people, and by the people and, as such, should, in theory, never manipulate the people. It IS the people! (now we're cooking)

Even if this does happen that people are manipulated as you say, the only way you can prevent it or stop it is through voting the right people into office and informing the uninformed or unenlightened so that they make the right choices. And maybe you don't do it through making people vote. Maybe you do it through advertising campaigns or by sticking hot pokers up people's arses. I don't know, the point is that, if you don't at least try to make people make informed decisions, you're going to end up with autocracies or else complete chaos (which may not be so bad admittedly) - the only way to function a civilised society is by going to ALL the people and having faith in their ability to think.

 

[snap-apple]

but it seems there are no right people to vote for - they're all the same - they just wear different colour ties. there's too much b(euro)cracy. it's like you want breakfast and you're choosing between seven different varieties of porridge - it's still bleedin' porridge. what happened to the corn flakes?

but yeah, i do think that if you're going to do democracy right you should have a mandatory vote.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

pete (06 Mar, 2002 12:12 p.m.):
One fear is that it will alienate people with no computer experience or people with a lower eduction level. Joe Higgins in particular has been making this point.

That sounds like a good idea. Fuck those with a lower education level/no computer experience.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

Dan (06 Mar, 2002 01:04 p.m.):

People who sit around and moan about how things are and then won't even bother to vote piss me off. If its a referendum vote yes, no or undecided. If its an election vote for whoever, if there's nobodies policies you agree with, do something about it or stop complaining. >(

I totally fucking agree. And there's still idiots out there who think it's *cool* not to be bothered voting....*maaaannnn*

I overheard some of them on the No 10 bus last month. If I had a crossbow handy I would have shot them in the face.

Cunts.

..And there were very few in the Rathmines polling station this evening.....

 

[Stuart Little]

Snakybus, I think you are a little confused between the concept of democracy and how it is actually implemented.
America is heralded as the shining example of democratic freedom.

There are 2 parties to choose from in a country with a population of 454,000,000(ish).

In terms of an irish government who do I choose?
None of them.

In your opinion I should still vote.

Should you tell me who for? Cos I don't know. And Forcing me to vote is doing nobody any favours.

Also, I don't think the manipulation of the public can be reversed anymore. The dumbass person in the street loves wearing blinkers.

Inform them?
Again, tell me how. It's a great concept, educate the masses, let us make informed voting decisions, vote the right people into office... i'm not arguing that, i just don't think that these things are possible, the freedom to choose is there - but no choices.

So in brief, I'm with you. These are great ideas. But they have nothing to do with the reality of our circumstance.

ps.
Incidentally, I don't have faith in mankind. We are Assholes. I have a few good mates, and I assume most people know a few sound heads, but as a species we are a lying, murdering, vicious shower of numbnutted onion-eyed weather-bitten monkey-faced clankers.

 

[snakybus]

Ah Stuart, you're just being a moany cunt. I seem to constantly meet people who, when I say, let's do this, they go "grumble grumble, no we can't do it, the practicalities of the situation don't allow for it, stop being idealistic and get realistic, moan moan moan". And then I go and do it anyway and they go "uhh...grumble grumble" about something else. People like this would prefer to exist in a bad situation then do anything about it.

Of course democracy is idealistic. But what are you going to do? What can you do except strive to at least acheive a modicum of it? America is a bad example - the founding fathers who signed the declaration of independece were well aware of the hypocracies inherent in what they were doing. Many of them were slave owners, for example. Of course this country was going to end up in a bad way.

So I say this: you can run for office if you want. You can run as an independent. You can start your own party. Or you can join Fianna Fail and change the system from within if that's your inclination. Or you can just vote. Or you can spraypaint slogans on shopfronts and warehouses. Or you can march down O'Connell Street with a banner. Don't you see? Democracy affords us these opportunities (okay you might be arrested for spraying on a shopfront but you know what I mean). There's a wealth of choices out there. And there is nothing stopping you apart from your own apathy.

"numbnutted onion-eyed weather-bitten monkey-faced clankers" :-D That's classic

 

[snap-apple]

Stuart Little (07 Mar, 2002 10:40 a.m.):
Incidentally, I don't have faith in mankind. We are Assholes. I have a few good mates, and I assume most people know a few sound heads, but as a species we are a lying, murdering, vicious shower of numbnutted onion-eyed weather-bitten monkey-faced clankers.

pricks! every last one of us...

 

[nann]

Keeror (06 Mar, 2002 02:52 p.m.):
Do the Australians include "none of the above" as an option on their ballot papers?
That would seem to me to be essential if you have a system where people are forced to vote for candidates they may not care about.
Do you get fined if you spoil your vote?
Can you be excused on grounds of ill health, etc?

i was just typin a responce to this when a cutomer walked in and i asked him the questions above anyway here's what he said:

Do the Australians include "none of the above" as an option on their ballot papers?

they don't have that option but the thing is that when you get to the polling station you just walk in and they tick youoff their name list after that it doen't matter if you actually vote or not. So if you were gonna do the "none of the above" you wouldn't bother actually voting you'd just get ticked and walk out.

Do you get fined if you spoil your vote?

Nope

Can you be excused on grounds of ill health, etc?

He wasn't too sure bout this one but he did say that people who are "christiadephian" (excuse the spelling) are excused cause its against their religion to vote!


and this is nann for channel thumped news live in australia!

 

[Pantone247]

snakybus (07 Mar, 2002 12:02 p.m.):

Of course democracy is idealistic. But what are you going to do?

well....since you ask you could all bow to my tyranical steel fisted rule and elect me as your leader supreme, in doing so you might just earn favour with me and I may show mercy to you and your family once my brave new world is established

tempting isn't it....

 

[kstop]

lorcanzo (06 Mar, 2002 01:25 p.m.):
christ people are very narky today...

i'm not talking about moving house, cos you'd obviously re-register, i'm talking about students who go up for the week and come home for the weekend. they probably wouldn't think to change where they vote. y'know?

Didn't stop me voting when I was a student. And the fact that I'm on the registry in Clare and not Dublin North-Whatever didn't stop me using a precious holiday day and going down to vote. If you don't vote you can't complain. Non-voting complainers will have their nipples sanded. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!

 

[snakybus]

Pantone247 (07 Mar, 2002 12:44 p.m.):

snakybus (07 Mar, 2002 12:02 p.m.):

Of course democracy is idealistic. But what are you going to do?

well....since you ask you could all bow to my tyranical steel fisted rule and elect me as your leader supreme, in doing so you might just earn favour with me and I may show mercy to you and your family once my brave new world is established

tempting isn't it....

All hail Pantone, mighty purple king of Thumped.

ooh matron