Hot Press / Awards / Not Document (2 Viewers)

[IrishUnsigned]

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth
Not surprised. Lazy, sloppy jounalism that is.

I usually think (maybe cos I'm a cynic and have 'business' experience of one of the individuals concerned) that HotPress is so selective of anything it prints which may make readers think "Oh, someone else does stuff for the undersogs, other than HotPress".

 

[silo]

"I usually think (maybe cos I'm a cynic and have 'business' experience of one of the individuals concerned) that HotPress is so selective of anything it prints which may make readers think "Oh, someone else does stuff for the undersogs, other than HotPress"."

what does this mean? are you saying hotpressgood or hotpressbad? what's an undersog?

so... the first gig in the book happened when i was 6 years old. jaysis. and the first one under the name hope was when i was 10.

 

[IrishUnsigned]

Originally posted by silo
what does this mean? are you saying hotpressgood or hotpressbad? what's an undersog?

An undersog - obviously - is a cross between and underDOG and a sock. Or something.

HotPressGood or HotPressBad? Depends on whether you like censorship, I suppose. I don't mind it if it is justified (ie no putting some porno on in the middle of kiddies TV) but I hate it when it is self-serving (ie never make any reference to any organisation that may be considered to be stealing your thunder, competing with you, removing some of the "Aren't Yiz Brilliant" factor, or basically making pewople think you're not quite as altruistic and generous of spirit as you like to pretend). Can't be any clearer than that, right?

Okay, well then I can. Of course, I can't mention any names (especially if they begin with Jackie) but here goes just one example of what I mean (quite aside from the fact that they refused to publish details about IrishUnsigned or other similar orgs in their handbook and thereby removed the chance for new bands to contact these organisations): Myself and my colleague are researching an Irish version of the Mercury Music Prize for 'real' music (none of the Meteor Miming Prize shit). We made a selections panel that includes the likes of Leagues O'Toole, Tom Dunne, and many others from the 'real' music industry. Only one, after being told that this was a valuntary project by us until it got funding, asked "What do I get?" before agreeing to look at it. We fired him from the panel. In case you're interested, there's a brief rundown of it at http://www.irishunsigned.com/nmp/nationalmusicprize.htm but it's well out of date now (although the idea is still the same, it's moved on and is sourcing sponsorship and investment for next year).

We like the idea of bands like Kila, or even lesser-known ones, being on the same shhortlist as your U2's and Cranberries and so on, cos there are *no* restrictions on who can be entered.

Anyway, advertising over.

 

[silo]

surely you realise all the assumptions you're making? what makes this music more "real"? why duplicate the same "awards ceremony" structures with slightly different music (more boys, more guitars, essentially)? are you surprised at hotpress? (ever seen an article in there critical of m.c.d.?) why should a band want to identify themselves as "unsigned" when they're just independent? (or, are the jimmy cake "unsigned"?)

i'm not trying to pick holes, i'm just wondering what your motivation is, or rather, why it's being channeled the way it is.

 

[IrishUnsigned]

Originally posted by silo
why should a band want to identify themselves as "unsigned" when they're just independent? (or, are the jimmy cake "unsigned"?). i'm not trying to pick holes, i'm just wondering what your motivation is, or rather, why it's being channeled the way it is.

Well, your assumption that the 'unsigned' thing has anything to do with the other project is off the mark. I should have made that clear. As for the award, it's simple. Every award in this country suffers drastically from a credibility problem. The Mercury doesn't in the uK (in comparison). What we think Ireland needs, is an award for a body of music critically evaluated and acclaimed by those in the industry who know their stuff, generally.

Think of it (although I'll be accused of being big-headed!) as a kind-of Nobel prize, not in it's importance, but in the selection procedure where the selectors are not answerable to anybody, anyone in the world is eligible, nominees can be provided by Joe Public and there is no political interference. That's credible (at least, it is if you read the outline). I obviously have to be brief about it.

Originally posted by silo
surely you realise all the assumptions you're making? what makes this music more "real"?

It's real music if it was written and created as an original piece. This has nothing to do with genre or taste. There is a slight exemption for traditional Irish or Classical music where the 'real' bit has to be tempered and so it will be a 'strikingly original arrangement' or something. We won't have, for example, Greatest Hits CD's eligible. As for the Jimmy Cake, they's be eligible like anyone else. It has nothing to do with being signed or otherwise, merely that an album, to be eligible, must be released to the public in Ireland (N. or S.). This is to ensure that all albums make some extra sales out of the thing, which is it's goal.

Originally posted by silo
why duplicate the same "awards ceremony" structures with slightly different music (more boys, more guitars, essentially)?

I take it this means you didn't read the outline? It's got nothing to do with anawards 'ceremony'. In fact, the 'ceremony' will merely be a presentation, nothing like the Meteors or anything. Basically, the idea is to get a list of all albums released, get them down to a shortlist (some radio people will let their listners selct their nominees) and then get them played as much as possible in shops and on radio/TV. That's good for all the shortlisted stuff, whether it's The Jimmy Cake or Richie Kavanagh (ugh!) or even Boyzone (Ugh again!). The selectors are not the type who would shortlist these but then again, there's ever possibility that Robie Williams next album would be critically acclaimed as a masterpiece (short odds I know, but you get the drift). This isn't about sales, about the right label or any label, about politics in the industry and so on. That's why it has received the backing it has from the press, industry, and so on (except one HotPress person.

Originally posted by silo
are you surprised at hotpress?

Not HotPress, only one person there. His reason for being kicked off the panel was nothing to do with his idea about the validity of the project. It was because, rather than saying "How can I get involved in improving this thing" he said "How much do I get". Wrong motivation for involvement. Not one other person, some of who are worth more in terms of time, respect and so on, than HotPress just happily said "Brilliant idea, I'm in".

 

[snakybus]

I like you, IU. Succinct, and to the point. With an Irish accent.

 

[silo]

"Every award in this country suffers drastically from a credibility problem."

so why create another one? what makes you "more credible"? why maintain the concept of music being objectively quantifiable in critical brackets?

"What we think Ireland needs, is an award for a body of music critically evaluated and acclaimed by those in the industry who know their stuff, generally."

why "in the industry"? why massage egos? how do they "know their stuff"?

"It's real music if it was written and created as an original piece."

so, any chart song that isn't a cover, essentially. the question remains: why are you "more real"?

"I take it this means you didn't read the outline? It's got nothing to do with anawards 'ceremony'."

you're missing the point: why have awards, especially ones decided as you're proposing? see answer to first point.

 

[dudley]

you know, while i don't neccessarily agree with a lot of what irish unsigned is about, it's getting a little boring seeing folk try and rubbish every single post the chap makes.

an awards ceremony were the nominees are based on something other than sales or payola isn't such a bad idea. it seems a pretty harmless way of selling some more records to me.

how do i get on the panel?

 

[pete]

Question: What the fuck has any of this got to do with the book?

Answer: Fuck all.

I'll be splitting this thread when i get time.

 

[IrishUnsigned]

Originally posted by silo
so why create another one? what makes you "more credible"? why maintain the concept of music being objectively quantifiable in critical brackets?

Sorry, maybe it's just me, but I don't understand the question. *I* am not more credible, the award would be, for the same reason why everyone ridiculed the Meteors for allowing Joe Public to 'vote' for the newcomer award but first limited who they could vote for. This project doesn't. It allows *every* album to be considered by the selection panel, some of whom wil;l be letting their listeners and readers to choose their selection - ie Joe Public.

As for creating a credible award in the first place, it's to increase public awareness of the albums concerned (and presumably increased sales, as does the Mercury - 60% in fact). If the Rednecks, for example, were shortlisted, then more Joe Public's will get to hear of them. I though that the idea of musicians was to get their stuff out there, and if more people hear it, then the chances of getting more fans increase. Better for what I *still* call real music.

Originally posted by silo
"What we think Ireland needs, is an award for a body of music critically evaluated and acclaimed by those in the industry who know their stuff, generally."

why "in the industry"? why massage egos? how do they "know their stuff"?

Read the stuff on the link I posted. The panel of selectors is comprehensive and all have a professional interest in music (although none are exactly major labels). Instead of just questioning everything, why not read it and then ask questins that are not answered in it. I realise it's an old document but the principles are the same.

Originally posted by silo
"It's real music if it was written and created as an original piece."

so, any chart song that isn't a cover, essentially. the question remains: why are you "more real"?

1.I didn't say anything about charts. I didn't even say 'song'. It's an Album only award (meaning more than 4 tracks (to be confirmed). Again, read the thing first.

2.I also didn't say anyhting about covers. Indeed, I said that allowances will be made for covers in certain areas where 'a striking arrangement' or whatever is found

Originally posted by silo
"I take it this means you didn't read the outline? It's got nothing to do with anawards 'ceremony'."

you're missing the point: why have awards, especially ones decided as you're proposing? see answer to first point.

Sorry, what do you mean "especially ones decided as you're proposing" when you have no idea *what* we are proposing.
Why have awards? Well, there are already awards there, that are easily manipulated by those in the know. We suggest it'd be much better to represent them by people who don't have ties to a band, a label, a producer, or any of the other myriad vested interests. Why do artists need an award? No idea. However, from a marketing point of view, would you not think it would help irish music both at home and abroad.

I often get the impression that some of the people in here think that anyone who treats their music as a business is automatically a sell-out. Not so. Finally, how do *you* define good music? Is it the teenage approach "I don't like it so it's crap"? All music can be quantified in some form or other, whether technical, artistic, sales (which we don't like), developmental, critical, impact or whatever. To me, just to use an example, the Clann Zu album 'Rua' is excellent and I would certainly think they would be happy if it won a national award that would allow them the artistic independence (thru finance) to develop their sound. However, whether it is technically good I have no idea. In this forum someone mentioned how brilliant the latest TRM album is. How is that quantified, if it's just personal taste.

Your question seems to be: Awards are shit so why do wwe need them? My answer is: We don't *need8 them but they are useful and we already *have* them, better to make them more open (much as we have been saying about the charts and so on. I am sure any band you care to mention would be delighted if a load of respected industry commentators said, effectively, "your music is so good, and that album is so good, that we collectively think it's one of the 20 best in the country". Who would turn that down, especially if it meant an extra 60% sales and all sorts of opportunities to develop?

 

[IrishUnsigned]

Originally posted by snakybus
I like you, IU. Succinct, and to the point. With an Irish accent.

:0)

It comes from having to repeat the same old stuff over and over again as people simply don't take the time to inform themselves. Nothing I said above (or below) is not already available in the link I posted but reading it would be far too much ahrd work for people who appear to only want to stir it. I have absolutely *no* hesitation in a considered debate but two things piss me off: Accusations about my motives (whether my actual ideas are right or wrong) and bandwagon jumpers who don't know the issues but still think they can form a considered opinion (note: not an opinion, anyone can have them, but a considered opinion). It's like the Nice treaty: apparently almost 77% of those who voted didn't understand the thing. I prefer to argue with people who's opinon is based on their understanding (whether, like me, they are right or wrong).

 

[IrishUnsigned]

Originally posted by dudley

how do i get on the panel?

Well! Someone gets the idea!
As for the panel, see the link I posted and see the panel (one or two alterations were made, though). I'm afraid you'd have to demonstrate an effective knowledge of the Irish muisic industry (ie bands, releases and so on) as well as having a high public profile or be a person respected by the industry. Meeting those criteria, you'd themn have to convince my colleague of your suitability. We *will* be changing the panel every year so it's doesn't become stale so you never know...

Actually I think it's a good idea to include some of the so-called 'underground' in the panel but not at this early stage...

 

[IrishUnsigned]

Originally posted by pete
Question: What the fuck has any of this got to do with the book?

Answer: Fuck all.

I'll be splitting this thread when i get time.

Sorry. No really. I seem to spend a lot of time defending my actions (of which there *are* at least some) no matter what topic I post on. Maybe I should change my post name since many people think that anything I say or write is automatically contrary to what they believe. Later, tyhey might change their mind but it'd be better if they informed themselves or, better still, if anyone has a serious complaint or question about my motives, call or mail me. I am happy to answer questions, as you see. If you ask them privately at least it won't clog up the thread (or lead to questions of glory-hunting and shit-stirring)

 

[billygannon]

The only problem I have with Pop music awards is that it's Pop music taking itself too seriously.

An Awards ceremony like the one Ron is suggesting isn't a bad idea.,.... it'd be nice to have an awards ceremony for music that's like the Booker prize to literature (I read the books shortlisted for the Booker.... ).

But don't keep it local.... seriously. It'll turn out like Self Aid or something like that.

 

[DontMugYourself]

Originally posted by snakybus
I like you, IU. Succinct, and to the point. With an Irish accent.

Genius

 

[silo]

i would like to go on, but i don't think it's really appropriate... p.m.'s beckon, methinks.

 

[Latex lizzie]

..hey irish you said that joe public would get to vote? maybe I'm wrong but you know what happens when joe public gets involved..westlife ahoy!...tom dunne on the pannel? mmmm. makes me reach for the parachute! I'm sure he is a really nice guy and his show isn't that bad I suppose, but me for one thinks of the whole marty wheelan..thelma mansfield..gerrry ryan brigade when his name gets mentioned..how about replacing him with the guy who runs road records( No I don't know him) but someone like his outfit does more for "new" and "independant" music in Ireland the the likes of mr dunne.!bing

 

[Hector Grey]

you're all forgetting the most important thing:
all music is shit.

it is.

 

[billygannon]

So a music awards ceremony would so of be like this

 

[Speed Racer]

IrishUnsigned is right. I think it would be a good idea to have an awards like the Mercuries. They're always good. And the bands they picked this year were fuckin refreshing. Don't let Joe Public get involved though, as your average citizen is dumber than a bag of hammers.