Cormcolash
Well-Known Member
Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane
Can I be the first to open the can?
Actually I could spend hours writing an essay on this here, but I don't have the time for that, so I'll have to try and quickly summarise what I think, and that's probably more difficult than the much longer answer. I'm sure my basic argument will have been used a million times anyway (and forgive the constant use of the inverted commas!).
Essentially, I don't agree with most of what you're saying, although there are a few points that I'd go with.
To put it bluntly, unsubtly, and not entirely accurately, the main thing I would point at here is the problem behind the idea of organising gigs/events/whatever which are primarily intended to "celebrate women and being female" under the banner of feminism.
The problem I see is that, by organising events to "celebrate women and being female" and you are in fact enforcing the difference between the sexes (especially in relation to whatever events you are organising) rather than combating it. Of course this shouldn't really have to be the case, but in my opinion it is more often than not the result when combined with extreme feminism, particularly in recent years.
Feminism as I see it is about equality, the fact that both sexes should be viewed as equally capable in every way to the point that people shouldn't even have to distinguish between sexes because it doesn't make a difference.
However, the idea of "celebrating women and being female" does not hold with that. By setting gigs/whatever up in this manner, what you are doing in my view in essence is putting women above men in order of importance. You are enforcing the idea of differences between the sexes, and you are practising a reverse form of sexism to that which you are trying to fight. This is the main thing that happened in Berlin which I find quite contemptible, and I think it's pretty disgusting that the majority of people at the gig there chose to uphold this view for the sake of the one person who decided to put it into practice.
You can't fight sexism by practicing another sort of sexism, the fact is you just end up looking as bad as that which you are trying to fight. Just take a look at what happened in Berlin. To most people who have heard the story, the extreme feminist who created such an uproar at the Ladyfest there actually just looks like a total idiot, because she is trying to impose her own sexist ideals on someone else at a festival which is supposed to be about combatting sexism.
Now I'm sure that Magical Girl is not attempting to organise gigs and events on a sexist basis, but trying to get women more involved in music and the arts, but when I see events organised with the purpose of "celebrating women and being female" for me it always comes back to the same problem of reverse sexism which enforces and encourages a difference between the sexes. This just makes me rather cynical about anything organised with this kind of statement in mind. I personally much prefer to see no real issue being made of what sex the members of a band are, because I don't think it should make a difference at all.
I think we're quite blessed in Ireland that we rarely if ever come across the extreme kind of feminism which really brings this issue to the fore. From what I gather, it is actually quite common in Germany and some other countries nearby. I'd like to attribute that to having a well-educated population, but considering what the result was the last time a racist law came up for vote, I can't even do that.
I could get much much deeper into this argument, and how it could just be viewed as a construct of the society we live in, but I don't have time.
The last thing I will ask is this: Why would someone be uncomfortable with a male band member taking off their top whilst playing a gig, but they wouldn't have a problem with a female band member doing the same thing?
Anyway I've rambled on enough now, I find it very difficult to try and explain my views on all this not because they are hard to formulate but actually because there are so many things I want to say that are related to each other that it is very difficult to seize on individual points.
I just want to make clear though that I'm not having a go at Magical Girl or anything, but more at the extreme feminism which I think is becoming a bigger and bigger part of modern feminism (in my opinion anyway!).
Can I be the first to open the can?
Actually I could spend hours writing an essay on this here, but I don't have the time for that, so I'll have to try and quickly summarise what I think, and that's probably more difficult than the much longer answer. I'm sure my basic argument will have been used a million times anyway (and forgive the constant use of the inverted commas!).
Essentially, I don't agree with most of what you're saying, although there are a few points that I'd go with.
To put it bluntly, unsubtly, and not entirely accurately, the main thing I would point at here is the problem behind the idea of organising gigs/events/whatever which are primarily intended to "celebrate women and being female" under the banner of feminism.
The problem I see is that, by organising events to "celebrate women and being female" and you are in fact enforcing the difference between the sexes (especially in relation to whatever events you are organising) rather than combating it. Of course this shouldn't really have to be the case, but in my opinion it is more often than not the result when combined with extreme feminism, particularly in recent years.
Feminism as I see it is about equality, the fact that both sexes should be viewed as equally capable in every way to the point that people shouldn't even have to distinguish between sexes because it doesn't make a difference.
However, the idea of "celebrating women and being female" does not hold with that. By setting gigs/whatever up in this manner, what you are doing in my view in essence is putting women above men in order of importance. You are enforcing the idea of differences between the sexes, and you are practising a reverse form of sexism to that which you are trying to fight. This is the main thing that happened in Berlin which I find quite contemptible, and I think it's pretty disgusting that the majority of people at the gig there chose to uphold this view for the sake of the one person who decided to put it into practice.
You can't fight sexism by practicing another sort of sexism, the fact is you just end up looking as bad as that which you are trying to fight. Just take a look at what happened in Berlin. To most people who have heard the story, the extreme feminist who created such an uproar at the Ladyfest there actually just looks like a total idiot, because she is trying to impose her own sexist ideals on someone else at a festival which is supposed to be about combatting sexism.
Now I'm sure that Magical Girl is not attempting to organise gigs and events on a sexist basis, but trying to get women more involved in music and the arts, but when I see events organised with the purpose of "celebrating women and being female" for me it always comes back to the same problem of reverse sexism which enforces and encourages a difference between the sexes. This just makes me rather cynical about anything organised with this kind of statement in mind. I personally much prefer to see no real issue being made of what sex the members of a band are, because I don't think it should make a difference at all.
I think we're quite blessed in Ireland that we rarely if ever come across the extreme kind of feminism which really brings this issue to the fore. From what I gather, it is actually quite common in Germany and some other countries nearby. I'd like to attribute that to having a well-educated population, but considering what the result was the last time a racist law came up for vote, I can't even do that.
I could get much much deeper into this argument, and how it could just be viewed as a construct of the society we live in, but I don't have time.
The last thing I will ask is this: Why would someone be uncomfortable with a male band member taking off their top whilst playing a gig, but they wouldn't have a problem with a female band member doing the same thing?
Anyway I've rambled on enough now, I find it very difficult to try and explain my views on all this not because they are hard to formulate but actually because there are so many things I want to say that are related to each other that it is very difficult to seize on individual points.
I just want to make clear though that I'm not having a go at Magical Girl or anything, but more at the extreme feminism which I think is becoming a bigger and bigger part of modern feminism (in my opinion anyway!).