Why men behave like pigs (1 Viewer)

riath

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There is a definite “boys will be boys” attitude here, especially when it comes to the local GAA team.
A few months after we opened, one of the players had a 21st here.
It got out of hand and the place was seriously damaged.
Pictures ripped off the walls, toilet seat pulled up, someone swinging off the chandelier, branches ripped off the trees and our van broken in to and hot wired (it never worked after that).

The worst part was 3 of the guys from the GAA team tried to kick in the door of our apartment when it was just my kid (12 at the time) and the dog home.
We were so busy trying to calm things down that I didn’t know about it until 3 hours later when I could get my phone and heard her hysterical phone calls.
She thought they were going to get in and hurt her and the dog, so she tried protecting him by locking the two of them in her room with stuff against the door.
I don’t think I’ve ever been so angry in my life.

The reaction here (including the Garda) was “ah sure what can you do. Don’t be causing a fuss now Missus, if you want to stay open and have people come in”.
Never an apology from the people and families involved, and we were treated like drama queens.

3 months later, two of them had an argument in town and the entire team/committee received texts saying that they’d disgraced the good name of the parish.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
There are no consequences for their behaviour here, so it’s hardly surprising when they act like asses when theyre in their 40s and 50s.
 

Squiggle

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Dunno the guy or the situation, but it'd be a fairly typical guy thing to refuse to back down in the heat if the moment. Doesn't mean he didn't change his mind when he thought about it later on
Sure, but it was more the default start position that I felt was worth commenting on. He, and many other men, don't see it so they don't believe it. And on the flip side its such a feature of life for most, if not all, women that they only speak up when it's really serious, and sometimes not even then. So even if oblivoman knows women who've been assaulted he might not be aware of it.

I really don't care about the "why", I just want it to stop so my daughter doesn't have to deal with it in her life.
 

magicbastarder

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still he couldn't believe it. Somehow he felt that we were outliers
my wife gets that reaction when she tells people she used to get unwanted attention when she was in her school uniform (back in the 90s) and remembers having conversations with schoolmates at the time that it was *more* prevalent when they were in uniform than when they were in civvies.
 

Squiggle

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my wife gets that reaction when she tells people she used to get unwanted attention when she was in her school uniform (back in the 90s) and remembers having conversations with schoolmates at the time that it was *more* prevalent when they were in uniform than when they were in civvies.
It's partly cultural, Eve and the fall (totally misread by the way - it was Adam's fault). "Hear no evil, see no evil" doesn't mean evil isn't there... and how many victims of institutional abuse have told their stories over the years only to be met with incredulity? It's like we can't have an honest conversation about this stuff. notallmen is only a continuation of a general notion.

Convents were a place that the abused could hide and escape their abusers a place where women were expected to give up all sexuality. If they didn't choose that option women were often made to marry their rapist. And I'm not referring to ancient history here. Marital rape wasn't recognised as a thing in this country until 1990 and still it is almost impossible to get a conviction... and without reproductive rights (still not resolved) women were often forced to have more children than they could cope with physically and emotionally.

Older friends of mine witnessed women raped by their husbands in the maternity hospital wards within hours of giving birth. These "conjugal visits" were a thing still in the 1980's. I can't even describe the feelings that knowledge gives me. What I'd like to do to any man who subjected his wife to any sexual advance when she'd just finished pushing a baby out after nearly 10 months of pregnancy would see me serving a prison sentence. How it made the victims feel can only be imagined.

10 months of pregnancy being treated like an incubator, no longer just less important than men, but now less important than a fertilised egg/foetus/unborn baby too. The stuff that still happens to women in birth would horrify you, so I won't go into it. But lets just say that still many women are left feeling like the least important person in the room, and the outcome for them is least important. Bodies and souls are left broken, and before she can even pull herself back together she's now got to "get back to her husband" while simultaneously caring for an utterly dependent, extremely demanding little person. This was the first marital rape case heard, 4 years after the law was changed to recognise it. First marital rape conviction recorded

There's no excuse for taking it out on the little person, but with so support, no-one to lend a sympathetic ear, isolated and alone and abused and angry it's hardly surprising some snapped occasionally, or even frequently. For any of you who had abusive mothers, or angry mothers something made her that way. Maybe you should ask her about it.

So really men behave badly because they can, safe in the knowledge that in 99% of cases even the woman's nearest and dearest will blame her, let alone the system. Some women behave like assholes because decades of institutionalised unfairness cause all kinds of reactions.
 
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ernesto

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It's partly cultural, Eve and the fall (totally misread by the way - it was Adam's fault). "Hear no evil, see no evil" doesn't mean evil isn't there... and how many victims of institutional abuse have told their stories over the years only to be met with incredulity? It's like we can't have an honest conversation about this stuff. notallmen is only a continuation of a general notion.

Convents were a place that the abused could hide and escape their abusers a place where women were expected to give up all sexuality. If they didn't choose that option women were often made to marry their rapist. And I'm not referring to ancient history here. Marital rape wasn't recognised as a thing in this country until 1990 and still it is almost impossible to get a conviction... and without reproductive rights (still not resolved) women were often forced to have more children than they could cope with physically and emotionally.

Older friends of mine witnessed women raped by their husbands in the maternity hospital wards within hours of giving birth. These "conjugal visits" were a thing still in the 1980's. I can't even describe the feelings that knowledge gives me. What I'd like to do to any man who subjected his wife to any sexual advance when she'd just finished pushing a baby out after nearly 10 months of pregnancy would see me serving a prison sentence. How it made the victims feel can only be imagined.

10 months of pregnancy being treated like an incubator, no longer just less important than men, but now less important than a fertilised egg/foetus/unborn baby too. The stuff that still happens to women in birth would horrify you, so I won't go into it. But lets just say that still many women are left feeling like the least important person in the room, and the outcome for them is least important. Bodies and souls are left broken, and before she can even pull herself back together she's now got to "get back to her husband" while simultaneously caring for an utterly dependent, extremely demanding little person. This was the first marital rape case heard, 4 years after the law was changed to recognise it. First marital rape conviction recorded

There's no excuse for taking it out on the little person, but with so support, no-one to lend a sympathetic ear, isolated and alone and abused and angry it's hardly surprising some snapped occasionally, or even frequently. For any of you who had abusive mothers, or angry mothers something made her that way. Maybe you should ask her about it.

So really men behave badly because they can, safe in the knowledge that in 99% of cases even the woman's nearest and dearest will blame her, let alone the system. Some women behave like assholes because decades of institutionalised unfairness cause all kinds of reactions.
fucking hell that is digusting and horrifying and painfully true
 

riath

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The “post birth marital visits” are still happening. I know of a case of a man being forcibly stopped from having sex with his wife hours after giving birth.
It was a shared ward.
 

Squiggle

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The “post birth marital visits” are still happening. I know of a case of a man being forcibly stopped from having sex with his wife hours after giving birth.
It was a shared ward.
At least they are no longer supported by hospital policy, but fucking hell! And that's in public, imagine what he puts that poor woman through at home?!
 

nuke terrorist

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It's partly cultural, Eve and the fall (totally misread by the way - it was Adam's fault). "Hear no evil, see no evil" doesn't mean evil isn't there... and how many victims of institutional abuse have told their stories over the years only to be met with incredulity? It's like we can't have an honest conversation about this stuff. notallmen is only a continuation of a general notion.

Convents were a place that the abused could hide and escape their abusers a place where women were expected to give up all sexuality. If they didn't choose that option women were often made to marry their rapist. And I'm not referring to ancient history here. Marital rape wasn't recognised as a thing in this country until 1990 and still it is almost impossible to get a conviction... and without reproductive rights (still not resolved) women were often forced to have more children than they could cope with physically and emotionally.

Older friends of mine witnessed women raped by their husbands in the maternity hospital wards within hours of giving birth. These "conjugal visits" were a thing still in the 1980's. I can't even describe the feelings that knowledge gives me. What I'd like to do to any man who subjected his wife to any sexual advance when she'd just finished pushing a baby out after nearly 10 months of pregnancy would see me serving a prison sentence. How it made the victims feel can only be imagined.

10 months of pregnancy being treated like an incubator, no longer just less important than men, but now less important than a fertilised egg/foetus/unborn baby too. The stuff that still happens to women in birth would horrify you, so I won't go into it. But lets just say that still many women are left feeling like the least important person in the room, and the outcome for them is least important. Bodies and souls are left broken, and before she can even pull herself back together she's now got to "get back to her husband" while simultaneously caring for an utterly dependent, extremely demanding little person. This was the first marital rape case heard, 4 years after the law was changed to recognise it. First marital rape conviction recorded

There's no excuse for taking it out on the little person, but with so support, no-one to lend a sympathetic ear, isolated and alone and abused and angry it's hardly surprising some snapped occasionally, or even frequently. For any of you who had abusive mothers, or angry mothers something made her that way. Maybe you should ask her about it.

So really men behave badly because they can, safe in the knowledge that in 99% of cases even the woman's nearest and dearest will blame her, let alone the system. Some women behave like assholes because decades of institutionalised unfairness cause all kinds of reactions.
Very important post.
this kind of abuse was unknown to me. never remotely entered my mind
 

jonah

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Thank you @Squiggle; for being far more eloquent in expressing so many of my exact thoughts than I could be <3
 

jonah

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I'll just kind of reiterate what Squiggle said earlier about women in a given group all disclosing sexual violence to a group of unbelieving men. This really spoke to my experience, too. Just the other night, I was in a group of 6 other women, and all but one of us had been sexually assaulted, and half the number had been assaulted more than once. This was also really specific to sexual violence, and didn't include the countless other numbers of sexual harassement we'd all experienced.

The shocking fact is, so many of the friendships I've made in my adult life with other women have been because we have rape in common. How fucked up is that.
 

ernesto

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I'll just kind of reiterate what Squiggle said earlier about women in a given group all disclosing sexual violence to a group of unbelieving men. This really spoke to my experience, too. Just the other night, I was in a group of 6 other women, and all but one of us had been sexually assaulted, and half the number had been assaulted more than once. This was also really specific to sexual violence, and didn't include the countless other numbers of sexual harassement we'd all experienced.

The shocking fact is, so many of the friendships I've made in my adult life with other women have been because we have rape in common. How fucked up is that.
men are pigs
 

Squiggle

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men are pigs
I don't think that's what we are saying.

Men generally seem to be able to get away with an awful lot and still be considered a "good guy". If there are no consequences to bad behaviour then there's no disincentive for people who are inclined to violence and control. Men are physically more powerful, and often socially too, and if they're given to abusing their power nobody seems to want to stop them. Society even seems to glorify it... just look at the awful excuses for human beings that currently occupy the top position of power in the US and the UK...

Even ordinary men who've committed violent rape have people queuing up to defend them, and to condemn their victim. Men who murdered their partners and children have the media whitewashing their crime before the neighbours and friends even get a chance to start into how wonderful he was and how he was pushed to it.

That teacher a few years ago who stabbed his entire family to death because he wanted to kill himself and felt that they shouldn't have a right to live without him springs to mind. His wife and children didn't even have names in the press coverage. Those children had defensive wounds, they were brutally and violently murdered. And all the papers could talk about was what a great guy he was. And guys thinking like him read that and they see that even after they are dead nobody will say a bad word about them...

Male privilege goes way beyond pay inequality and glass ceilings, it pervades every area of life... it's in all the little things. Things designed by men for men, and even by women for men, that women are expected to put up with and adapt to. Car seatbelts aren't designed to keep women safe, they actually cause women serious injuries, they're not even tested using female test dummies.

Anyway, I should stop writing essays about the evils of social indulgence of the male and get back to trying to smash the glass ceiling :)
 

Lili Marlene

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I don't think that's what we are saying.

Men generally seem to be able to get away with an awful lot and still be considered a "good guy". If there are no consequences to bad behaviour then there's no disincentive for people who are inclined to violence and control. Men are physically more powerful, and often socially too, and if they're given to abusing their power nobody seems to want to stop them. Society even seems to glorify it... just look at the awful excuses for human beings that currently occupy the top position of power in the US and the UK...

Even ordinary men who've committed violent rape have people queuing up to defend them, and to condemn their victim. Men who murdered their partners and children have the media whitewashing their crime before the neighbours and friends even get a chance to start into how wonderful he was and how he was pushed to it.

That teacher a few years ago who stabbed his entire family to death because he wanted to kill himself and felt that they shouldn't have a right to live without him springs to mind. His wife and children didn't even have names in the press coverage. Those children had defensive wounds, they were brutally and violently murdered. And all the papers could talk about was what a great guy he was. And guys thinking like him read that and they see that even after they are dead nobody will say a bad word about them...

Male privilege goes way beyond pay inequality and glass ceilings, it pervades every area of life... it's in all the little things. Things designed by men for men, and even by women for men, that women are expected to put up with and adapt to. Car seatbelts aren't designed to keep women safe, they actually cause women serious injuries, they're not even tested using female test dummies.

Anyway, I should stop writing essays about the evils of social indulgence of the male and get back to trying to smash the glass ceiling :)
Agree with all of this, I suppose my own thoughts are that I want to support where I can, but not by jumping in being the loud male feminist at everyone. In 2020 especially, there is no lack of strong women out there who want to be heard. The last thing I need is to get a patronizing slap on the back from a few people for being a "good ally," as if this shit doesn't affect everyone.

Rather than just condemning all men as pigs and useless I want to try and understand (and alter??) the situations that lead to men thinking in these ways; usually some idea like "it is a mans responsibility to be the provider for their whole family" gone down a very dark path is what leads to someone killing their entire family when they were unable to be that provider. Being a man = being a provider can be as damaging a lesson as women = there for sex and to provide an heir.

So when people say "this is supposed to be about women and you want to talk about men??" I end up in a pretty awkward spot - certainly, I need to know when and where to have these conversations, but they do need to be had. A lot of people really don't want to hear about how a rapist is a human-being too but I can't see the landscape changing if we just rely on scapegoating and dividing people into good and bad guys. I suppose similar to what you said earlier, there's no excuse... but with no support, no-one to lend a sympathetic ear, isolated and alone and abused and angry it's hardly surprising some snap occasionally, or even frequently.

(please note I am not talking about the media-coverage here, so much of media is either 25 years behind and still victim-blaming or clickbaity hell in one way or another and I'd happily have it all stopped tomorrow, I sure as hell ain't reading it.)
 
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jonah

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On the contrary, I think EXACTLY what we need is men shouldering some of the burden of talking to and about other men. As you said, there are plently of women who are happy to and want to be given the space to speak for themselves, but men do need to take on the responsibility of talking to and challenging eachother.

Because so often in these situations men do not call out other men, they aren't the dissenting voice in a locker room conversation, and they don't have the hard conversations about consent with their peers. its very easy for us all to overlook comments in passing as comments, and say nothing. For my money its in saying the hard thing that men could throw their weight.

Its related, tangentially, though not exactly what we're talking about but it pissed me off here recently enough in the last few months when I read what I percieved as a pretty gross transphobic comment, and everyone skirted on by it.

edited for all the spelling mistakes.
 

Squiggle

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Agree with all of this, I suppose my own thoughts are that I want to support where I can, but not by jumping in being the loud male feminist at everyone. In 2020 especially, there is no lack of strong women out there who want to be heard. The last thing I need is to get a patronizing slap on the back from a few people for being a "good ally," as if this shit doesn't affect everyone.

Rather than just condemning all men as pigs and useless I want to try and understand (and alter??) the situations that lead to men thinking in these ways; usually some idea like "it is a mans responsibility to be the provider for their whole family" gone down a very dark path is what leads to someone killing their entire family when they were unable to be that provider. Being a man = being a provider is as damaging a lesson as women = there for sex and to provide an heir.

So when people say "this is supposed to be about women and you want to talk about men??" I end up in a pretty awkward spot - certainly, I need to know when and where to have these conversations, but they do need to be had. A lot of people really don't want to hear about how a rapist is a human-being too but I can't see the landscape changing if we just rely on scapegoating and dividing people into good and bad guys. I suppose similar to what you said earlier, there's no excuse... but with no support, no-one to lend a sympathetic ear, isolated and alone and abused and angry it's hardly surprising some snap occasionally, or even frequently.

(please note I am not talking about the media-coverage here, so much of media is either 25 years behind and still victim-blaming or clickbaity hell in one way or another and I'd happily have it all stopped tomorrow, I sure as hell ain't reading it.)
Men care what other men think of them, usually... so men holding themselves, and their peers, accountable is a good start. And even one guy can make a difference, I've seen it myself. Yes, men struggle with isolation and anger too, but it's often of their own choosing. Men don't have the same difficulty getting support, or being believed, as women do in clinical settings. There are lots of studies on the subject. But men tend not to reach out for the help that is there.

It's messed up!
 

Lili Marlene

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Men care what other men think of them, usually... so men holding themselves, and their peers, accountable is a good start. And even one guy can make a difference, I've seen it myself. Yes, men struggle with isolation and anger too, but it's often of their own choosing. Men don't have the same difficulty getting support, or being believed, as women do in clinical settings. There are lots of studies on the subject.
Well I might disagree about "their own choosing" considering the alternative might be making themselves vulnerable, the most verboten thing a man can do; but yeah, I think I first came across a lot of this years ago when I read about how office air conditioning temperature was set by men for men back in the 60s and that's why women are always freezing in offices.
 

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Well I might disagree about "their own choosing" considering the alternative might be making themselves vulnerable, the most verboten thing a man can do; but yeah, I think I first came across a lot of this years ago when I read about how office air conditioning temperature was set by men for men back in 60s and that's why women are always freezing in offices.
Even "vulnerability" as a concept for men is a weird one. It's like men don't understand real strength or weakness. It takes courage to shake off toxic masculinity, it's easy to hide behind, to fit in with the crowd. Asking for help isn't weakness, it's strength, it's good sense.

And as for holding accountable, well that can be as simple as saying "stop behaving like an asshole". I first experienced full blown toxic masculinity concentrated at 14 in my first year of leaving cert engineering, I was the only girl in the class, first ever in the history of the school. The harassment stopped because one guy, very quietly and calmly, told them all that they were behaving like animals, and if they kept annoying me he'd tell his girlfriend (the biggest gossip in the school). Simple but effective.

Edit: She was also very lovely and very popular, and friends with all the most beautiful girls...
 

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