What Twitter pile on are you watching right now (2 Viewers)

hugh

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Since 2000
Joined
Dec 9, 2000
Messages
5,968
I think the term “radical feminism” means something quite different now than it did 20 years ... but either way it’s really a pejorative label isn’t it? In the “I’m all for feminism but not the radical kind do you know what I mean?” kind of way.

Did you once sit down at a table with a bunch of people who study and research feminism and attempt to explain something about feminism to them? Oh, go on, you did didn’t you? Anyway I hear you about the academic thing but it’s also the forum in which all these issues are debated and teased out and if it’s completely divorced from the practical realities of life then they are maybe just not doing it right.
 

ann post

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Thread starter
Joined
Oct 13, 2002
Messages
22,820
Location
Internment Explorer sp3
I think the term “radical feminism” means something quite different now than it did 20 years ... but either way it’s really a pejorative label isn’t it? In the “I’m all for feminism but not the radical kind do you know what I mean?” kind of way.

Did you once sit down at a table with a bunch of people who study and research feminism and attempt to explain something about feminism to them? Oh, go on, you did didn’t you? Anyway I hear you about the academic thing but it’s also the forum in which all these issues are debated and teased out and if it’s completely divorced from the practical realities of life then they are maybe just not doing it right.

I tried to explain to them what its like to be a young lad on a building site.

edit: radical feminism as far as i know was initially a joke some lesbians made up for the craic. It morphed into whatever it is today.
 

therealjohnny

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Nov 1, 2002
Messages
32,291

Attachments

  • IMG_8935.JPG
    IMG_8935.JPG
    517.3 KB · Views: 17

Diddles

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
4,959
Location
there on the stairs
'Radical Feminism' or old school Feminism centres women and girls, does not include men (they can support feminism but can't be a feminist ) and there are several points of conflict with trans rights activists (TRAs)/Intersectional Feminists. TRAs believe that Trans people were always the sex the identify with, therefore Trans Women ARE Women and Trans Men ARE Men. Radical feminists do not believe a person can change sex, although people can be whatever gender (a social construct) they want to be and should be supported to live their lives however they want. They feel that women and girls are oppressed and brutalised all over the world because of their bodies, their sex, and they can't identify out of that oppression by saying they are men. Also, reinforcing gender stereotypes makes it harder for women to be treated equally. There is also a conflict regarding altering of language concerning women's health and rights issues. Many organisations have stopped using the word 'Woman' in order to include a very tiny population of transmen and non binary people, leading to the use of words and terms like 'Womxn' , 'cervix havers', 'menstruators', 'birthing parent' by governments, NGOs, public health bodies and posing serious issues for women who face language barriers, have special needs etc. when attempting to access information about their own bodies (Conversely, there has been no altering of public information that centres men, e.g. Movember, Men's Shed's etc., no men are called 'prostate havers' or 'ejaculators' on the HSE website). There are also concerns about some men taking the piss out of the whole thing and calling themselves lesbian women and there are issues around sports, prisons, changing rooms and lots of other problems that can't be solved by just shouting TWAW, TMAM, cancelling and de-platforming women who disagree and calling them nazi TERF bigot bitches who are literally killing trans people with their mean ways.
 

rettucs

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
22,381
Location
Post of the week winner: 22nd March, 2013
how does anyone become anything with one of those labels though? Like, what are the chances there's a group of people who agree on every little thing that one is meant to be to constitute being in one of those groups?

I do wonder if someone just wakes up one day and decide to become something with a label. Then they go and get a list of everything they need to do or believe, and go and do it. Rather than believing those things in the first place.

I dunno. It confuses the hell out of me anyway.
 

hugh

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Since 2000
Joined
Dec 9, 2000
Messages
5,968
Excellent summary from Diddles there.

Also very informative is this interview with Judith Butler who is obviously coming at it from a different position. And also touches on quite a few other things that are exercising people on this thread.

 

Lili Marlene

Trying not to have a bad day
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Oct 14, 2002
Messages
28,917
Solutions
1
Location
Way beyond the Rubicon
It kind of reminds me of Free Speech warriors, every debate just becomes one about free-speech, literally you cannot talk about anything else and you have to keep looking for more and more fringe and extreme examples in order to continue having the argument. It's a billion miles removed from 99.99% of reality but you can continue the argument for all time because there'll always be at least one person suffering. You're not in favour of suffering are you???
 

Cormcolash

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2002
Messages
20,797
Location
THIS IS SPARTA!!!
Website
geocities.com
It kind of reminds me of Free Speech warriors, every debate just becomes one about free-speech, literally you cannot talk about anything else and you have to keep looking for more and more fringe and extreme examples in order to continue having the argument. It's a billion miles removed from 99.99% of reality but you can continue the argument for all time because there'll always be at least one person suffering. You're not in favour of suffering are you???
 

YoungHearts

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
480
Location
Dublin, Mayo
Website
www.youngheartsrunfree.ie
'Radical Feminism' or old school Feminism centres women and girls, does not include men (they can support feminism but can't be a feminist ) and there are several points of conflict with trans rights activists (TRAs)/Intersectional Feminists. TRAs believe that Trans people were always the sex the identify with, therefore Trans Women ARE Women and Trans Men ARE Men. Radical feminists do not believe a person can change sex, although people can be whatever gender (a social construct) they want to be and should be supported to live their lives however they want. They feel that women and girls are oppressed and brutalised all over the world because of their bodies, their sex, and they can't identify out of that oppression by saying they are men. Also, reinforcing gender stereotypes makes it harder for women to be treated equally. There is also a conflict regarding altering of language concerning women's health and rights issues. Many organisations have stopped using the word 'Woman' in order to include a very tiny population of transmen and non binary people, leading to the use of words and terms like 'Womxn' , 'cervix havers', 'menstruators', 'birthing parent' by governments, NGOs, public health bodies and posing serious issues for women who face language barriers, have special needs etc. when attempting to access information about their own bodies (Conversely, there has been no altering of public information that centres men, e.g. Movember, Men's Shed's etc., no men are called 'prostate havers' or 'ejaculators' on the HSE website). There are also concerns about some men taking the piss out of the whole thing and calling themselves lesbian women and there are issues around sports, prisons, changing rooms and lots of other problems that can't be solved by just shouting TWAW, TMAM, cancelling and de-platforming women who disagree and calling them nazi TERF bigot bitches who are literally killing trans people with their mean ways.
Honestly @Diddles you put it forward more concisely than I could. I would have been there for days, rambling on about all of the nuances, all of the difficulties, all of the implications. There are so many elements, and I have found things incredibly dispiriting the last couple of years. The fact that women's sex-based rights have to be explained-their importance and why they were fought for in the first place (and it's mainly women who are forced to do the explaining-no surprise there) . And it's not like we have full parity in all aspects of life. And, even though it shouldn't need restating, women and girls are still society's most vulnerable, for a myriad of reasons-but male violence is one-when rape, sexual assault and femicide are seen as the actual epidemics they are-then we will be working towards a more civilised society. Lots of people are working towards that, but not enough.
 

YoungHearts

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
480
Location
Dublin, Mayo
Website
www.youngheartsrunfree.ie
Excellent summary from Diddles there.

Also very informative is this interview with Judith Butler who is obviously coming at it from a different position. And also touches on quite a few other things that are exercising people on this thread.

I must say Hugh-I cannot stand Judith Butler. But I like you.
 

hugh

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Since 2000
Joined
Dec 9, 2000
Messages
5,968
I must say Hugh-I cannot stand Judith Butler. But I like you.

I'd be surprised if you did (like Judith Butler that is) as she represents a very different take on feminism to the one that you are espousing. I think she articulates that position very clearly here (which is rare for Judith Butler!) so it's worth a read if people want to know more about this. She also being quite generous I think and you might at least appreciate her view that these disagreements and issues need to be worked through by means of considered debate on all sides.

By the way, it's quite telling that Susanah Moore has a go at postmodernism in the middle of her piece. I doubt she is a fan of Butler either.

And I like you too!
 

YoungHearts

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
480
Location
Dublin, Mayo
Website
www.youngheartsrunfree.ie
I'd be surprised if you did (like Judith Butler that is) as she represents a very different take on feminism to the one that you are espousing. I think she articulates that position very clearly here (which is rare for Judith Butler!) so it's worth a read if people want to know more about this. She also being quite generous I think and you might at least appreciate her view that these disagreements and issues need to be worked through by means of considered debate on all sides.

By the way, it's quite telling that Susanah Moore has a go at postmodernism in the middle of her piece. I doubt she is a fan of Butler either.

And I like you too!
I appreciate that, I do. One of my frustrations with Butler (the big disciple of Derrida, of course) is that there are material (and often quite heavy) consequences and realities for girls and women because of our biological sex, realities that cannot be explained away through postmodernism and a sense that all of this is a mere construct of language. I think it is a nonsense. Yet sometimes these realities are often treated as an inconvenience. Yet for some women and girls, it is literally a matter of life and death. And I am not being dramatic. Anyway, you are right in perhaps guessing that my feminism is one that centres women and girls, because the world is generally centred around males. Women spend so much time having to consciously and subconsciously navigating that. It's exhausting. And I need bit of breathing space. AS MUCH AS I LOVE THE GOOD MEN.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Support thumped.com

Support thumped.com and upgrade your account

Upgrade your account now to disable all ads... If we had any... Which we don't right now.

Upgrade now

Latest posts

Trending Threads

Latest threads

Top