What Twitter pile on are you watching right now (1 Viewer)

Lili Marlene

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Am sure you know, but in a nutshell-real debate and discourse is being lost, and it might not seem massively important when we are in a pandemic, and with homelessness at an all-time high, and people struggling in a myriad of ways-but it is important.

Suzanne Moore left for a variety of reasons, I think the full page obituary given over to Peter Sutcliffe in the paper she writes for was the final straw-considering all the women he murdered who people don't really remember the names of.

In the last few years she has been harassed, sent death threats, (as have her children), rape threats, had to get the police involved, simply because she stated reasonable opinions-in her....opinion pieces. She had been at The Guardian for 25 years, I didn't agree with all of her pieces-but I always read her-because she has an interesting sensibility, a a mixture of compassion and constructive anger, and maybe I relate. Disagreement isn't tantamount to discrimination, and we need to be able to ask questions, and apply rigour to various subjects, otherwise I am not sure where we are at.

It might not surprise anyone after reading the preceding three paragraphs-but I really miss people like Christopher Hitchens from the world, he would be seen as "problematic" no doubt, and various people would have surely tried to "cancel" him (what a ridiculous, narcissistic world we live in), but as he wrote-
"If someone tells me that I've hurt their feelings, I say, 'I'm still waiting to hear what your point is.' In this country, I've been told, 'That's offensive' as if those two words constitute an argument or a comment. Not to me they don't."

I don't like the period we are living in-and I come from a place where I respect everyone's human rights. It's sad that I even had to write down that caveat-but I have written it on this forum before, and guess I will again-it is the most misogynistic period I have ever lived through, coming up to four decades on this planet, and it hasn't exactly been a cake walk up to this point. Something strange is happening, and I am still trying to work the roots of it out....that's a long winded way of me saying that I will miss Suzanne Moore's work from The Guardian- papers of record should have divergent opinions, otherwise we are in an echo chamber. If we stop asking questions-where are we

What debate though? Maybe I disagree with the idea of "constructive anger" because I don't know what she has done that is constructive. She's being writing for 30 odd years though and I recognise that i've only been aware of her for about 10.

As I was saying earlier, I'll miss Dawn Foster's work more, another person quietly let go by what considers itself to be the paper of record for having the wrong opinion, but then I don't think the Guardian is especially good. Most of the writers, female or male, I really respect are rarely printed in the Guardian. I dunno, opinion pages are a bit of a bore at the best of times imho, people churning out the same stuff for 20 years.
 

YoungHearts

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Didn't she get a lot of hassle over posting something that was construed as anti-trans?

Could have that wrong, and I have no idea what she wrote, if not.
Hello-that was the piece that seemed to inspire the petition that some Guardian staff members signed-which seemed pretty McCarthyist to me. Particularly when it comes to journalism. Twitter isn't the ultimate editor-but its power suggests that some people in these fields are allowing it to be.

And this is the issue-in my opinion nothing Suzanne Moore has written has been anti-trans/transphobic, she is stating certain opinions about potential and present impacts on women-and certain conflicts that have arisen, and might arise in the future. The piece in question was considered, but also-she is of course entitled to her opinion as a woman on women's rights-and anything-she is an opinion columnist! It's sad that I have to restate that. But then she was sent death and rape threats and feared for her safety simply because she wrote a piece about women's sex-based rights, and why language and definition are so important in this regard-and several other elements that she wrote about far eloquently than I have here. Some people can and do disagree with her-that's a democratic society. I mean, they can't disagree with her about women's rights, because I will burn their house down ONLY KIDDING (!), but you know what I mean.

I read a study recently that used the UK as an example, in a population of 68 million people, one fifth are on Twitter, 80% of tweets are done by 10% of that fifth. Twitter isn't the real world-I know we all know this, but it's strange to see the power it wields in insidious ways.
 

YoungHearts

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What debate though? Maybe I disagree with the idea of "constructive anger" because I don't know what she has done that is constructive. She's being writing for 30 odd years though and I recognise that i've only been aware of her for about 10.

As I was saying earlier, I'll miss Dawn Foster's work more, another person quietly let go by what considers itself to be the paper of record for having the wrong opinion, but then I don't think the Guardian is especially good. Most of the writers, female or male, I really respect are rarely printed in the Guardian. I dunno, opinion pages are a bit of a bore at the best of times imho, people churning out the same stuff for 20 years.
I disagree with you completely-but this is good. I understand what you mean about Dawn Foster though. However, Suzanne Moore represents something to me that she obviously doesn't to you-we are different people. I have been aware of her since I started reading The Guardian at 18 when they did the special deal at college-she helped open my mind up to various writers and thinkers and political movements and so on-and for that I am grateful. We are all grateful to those that are gateways to more knowledge. She comes from a good place. An angry place that seeks a better world than the one we inherited-I like that. I don't need to tell you about all the stuff she has done for women's rights through various organisations over the last 30 years, you can do that yourself if it interests you (probably not)-but there's the constructive part.

Anyway, at least Marina Hyde is still there-who I find to be exceptional.
 

Lili Marlene

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I disagree with you completely-but this is good. I understand what you mean about Dawn Foster though. However, Suzanne Moore represents something to me that she obviously doesn't to you-we are different people. I have been aware of her since I started reading The Guardian at 18 when they did the special deal at college-she helped open my mind up to various writers and thinkers and political movements and so on-and for that I am grateful. We are all grateful to those that are gateways to more knowledge. She comes from a good place. An angry place that seeks a better world than the one we inherited-I like that. I don't need to tell you about all the stuff she has done for women's rights through various organisations over the last 30 years, you can do that yourself if it interests you (probably not)-but there's the constructive part.

Anyway, at least Marina Hyde is still there-who I find to be exceptional.
Sure yeah, we all have people who opened our mind open to things. I don't wish any harm upon Suzanne Moore nor am I accusing her of coming from a bad place.

Marina Hyde is a funny writer (her years long petty fighting with Sting's wife is definitely something i've enjoyed) but I admit that I despise her politics so she's kind of soured on me.

For what it's worth, rather than just sitting here criticizing people you like here's some current female writers that fall on the "commentator/reviewer" spectrum that I do actively seek out and read, even if I don't always agree with everything they write:

Rosa Lyster
Briahna Joy Grey
Amber A'Lee Frost
Lauren Oyler
Elizabeth Bruenig
Dawn Foster
Liz Pelly
Maura Johnston
 

YoungHearts

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Sure yeah, we all have people who opened our mind open to things. I don't wish any harm upon Suzanne Moore nor am I accusing her of coming from a bad place.

Marina Hyde is a funny writer (her years long petty fighting with Sting's wife is definitely something i've enjoyed) but I admit that I despise her politics so she's kind of soured on me.

For what it's worth, rather than just sitting here criticizing people you like here's some current female writers that fall on the "commentator/reviewer" spectrum that I do actively seek out and read, even if I don't always agree with everything they write:

Rosa Lyster
Briahna Joy Grey
Amber A'Lee Frost
Lauren Oyler
Elizabeth Bruenig
Dawn Foster
Liz Pelly
Maura Johnston
I have a soft spot for Liz Pelly, but the whole list is great, and I appreciate it (y)
 

Diddles

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I know little of her but I saw someone on twitter say that her departure was probably over something TERFY.

Dawn Foster is the one who likes to go on about how actually the Catholic Church is good?

She's not a TERF though and she didn't say anything 'terfy'. This is huge problem on Twitter, just calling women TERFs because they express concerns about their sex based rights. I hate going on it now, seeing so many woman getting fucked under a bus. So many decent people are getting sacrificed on the alter of Twitter, it's not a genuine indicator of public opinion , it's an echo chamber most of the time, huge swathes of the world population aren't on it. Fuck Twitter.
 

ann post

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She's not a TERF though and she didn't say anything 'terfy'. This is huge problem on Twitter, just calling women TERFs because they express concerns about their sex based rights. I hate going on it now, seeing so many woman getting fucked under a bus. So many decent people are getting sacrificed on the alter of Twitter, it's not a genuine indicator of public opinion , it's an echo chamber most of the time, huge swathes of the world population aren't on it. Fuck Twitter.

just saw this, havent read it yet
 

Cormcolash

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She's not a TERF though and she didn't say anything 'terfy'. This is huge problem on Twitter, just calling women TERFs because they express concerns about their sex based rights. I hate going on it now, seeing so many woman getting fucked under a bus. So many decent people are getting sacrificed on the alter of Twitter, it's not a genuine indicator of public opinion , it's an echo chamber most of the time, huge swathes of the world population aren't on it. Fuck Twitter.
That's exactly what a TERF would say! Burn her, BURN HER!!!

 

ann post

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I just read it and it is very interesting indeed!

I went in and read it after. I've not been familiar with her work over the years but I did think it was a compelling piece. She touches on a lot of things, some i'd have said myself in different ways over the years so i found it relatable in that sense (Not the stuff about actually being a woman, thats not really my forte :p). Last night when i looked she'd about 60-70 supportive tweets about it racked up, I'm wondering what'll happen when it reaches the people who it addresses..
 

Lili Marlene

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When the media incessantly just becomes about the media and it's all a competition to work out who is the real victim here, the losers are the readers.

I read that piece, bits I agree with, bits I disagree with, but the general tone was that in fact she is the victim, not them.

Everyone just flinging their personal essays at each other.
 

YoungHearts

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I went in and read it after. I've not been familiar with her work over the years but I did think it was a compelling piece. She touches on a lot of things, some i'd have said myself in different ways over the years so i found it relatable in that sense (Not the stuff about actually being a woman, thats not really my forte :p). Last night when i looked she'd about 60-70 supportive tweets about it racked up, I'm wondering what'll happen when it reaches the people who it addresses..
I think there is a strange tipping point that her experience conveys - she isn't the first, and won't be the last, but it's symptomatic of something very wrong. As you wrote, it will be interesting to see what happens once it reaches those people.
 

ann post

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When the media incessantly just becomes about the media and it's all a competition to work out who is the real victim here, the losers are the readers.

I read that piece, bits I agree with, bits I disagree with, but the general tone was that in fact she is the victim, not them.

Everyone just flinging their personal essays at each other.

Good Mornign Lili
 

sleepy

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She's not a TERF though and she didn't say anything 'terfy'. This is huge problem on Twitter, just calling women TERFs because they express concerns about their sex based rights. I hate going on it now, seeing so many woman getting fucked under a bus. So many decent people are getting sacrificed on the alter of Twitter, it's not a genuine indicator of public opinion , it's an echo chamber most of the time, huge swathes of the world population aren't on it. Fuck Twitter.
I've never actually had a conversation with anyone in real life about the TERF wars. Maybe it's because of my pandemic induced ever decreasing social circle but it's not something that most people seem to worry about on a day to day basis
 

moose

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I've never actually had a conversation with anyone in real life about the TERF wars. Maybe it's because of my pandemic induced ever decreasing social circle but it's not something that most people seem to worry about on a day to day basis

I'd imagine most trans people and their friends are more likely to worry about at least once a day but other people not so much unless they have an issue with trans people.
 

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