US politics (1 Viewer)

flashback

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What are they purchasing though? Israel gets a massive missile defense system and the guarantee that no matter what they do to Palestine the USA will ensure there are no consequences.

Russia gets, what, to troll and goad the liberal media? To keep Maddow in a job?

What Russia is doing in the Ukraine is horrific, if a few troll farms can lead to the entire of the USA to breakdown then thats on the USA.

I guess a few things.

The obvious ones that directly affect the ruling class are sanctions and trade restrictions. The US enables market access, any disruption of that costs people money.

Whatever drives the US to promote their vision of liberal capitalist democracy onto others, something similar is driving an anti democratic authoritarian world view within the current ruling party in Russia. Similar to the US world view, Russia has their world view: democracy is a waste of time / all political parties are the same / all politicians are corrupt / strong man politics / any type of GLBT stuff is bollocks and so on. It's sort of hard to understand why the US or Russia wants to inflict their ruling party's values on others, but they do it.

Also similar to the US, empire building / expansion of power / permission slips for having wars. (They wanted that war / it's a war to save them / it's not really a war.)

Destabilization / divide / zero sum game stuff, polarizing groups within the US to be at each other's necks / Brexit etc results in splitting and paralysis in traditional centers of power, which increases their relative power.

Putting it glibly "money and power". But it's a bit more than that, the US is an empire with weird empire wants, and so is Russia. It's difficult to understand why the US feels the need to do some of its weird empirey things, but they do do them. It might be a kind of future proofing? We don't know exactly what's coming, but if we can control how people think we're more likely to be able to deal with it.

I guess what I learned in DC is that virtually every interest has lobbyists in DC. Even if you're not big enough to directly lobby, say some caribbean country, you'll band up with say a group of other central American guys and act that way. There's countless decisions being made every day, and if you can sway a fraction of a percent of them then it's worth it. It can and is as tiny as someone getting drinks for someone, someone getting some out of marraige hot sex, that leads to a banana and sugar cane factory loan (I think?). If you are in DC long enough you'll end up with lobbyists, in parties, getting drunk, and what happens there influences... I mean, anything from sugar cane deal upwards. Ahead of time you don't plan it out, you can't see the future, but you put all the pieces in play to make sure you get closer to the result you want. But yeah, EVERY decision made in DC is influenced by lobbyists. And Russia isn't going to be the single entity to stand above it all and decide they can't stomach it.

Having said that, I didn't actually go to parties and so on with Russian lobbysts doing work in the open, I didn't actually watch them work in the way I watched the Israel lobby / south american lobby / carrib & central american ones. I can't say I saw it that way, the closest was at a weird Dem new year eve gig momentarily that was Russian centric, but left because it was out of my depth, not dressed for it, and uncomfortable.

Sorry for the fucking length of the post... too tired to edit.
 

moose

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Bit of a hot take here, but Russia is not a "middling country". That's the whole crux of the thing.

I also note that some of you seem to think Russia has a plan. The plan has always been there is no plan. Just fuck shit up. They see how wrong the rest of the world is, all they have to do is help that along, it'll make Russia look better. And there is no real why.


Actually there probably is, but that would involve overthinking. He's a troll with nukes, financial reserves, a brainwashed and dispirited electorate and huge resources. And a massive chip on the shoulder.

What percentage of the Russian population do you reckon is brainwashed? and what percentage of say UK, US or Irish population?

Purely out of curiosity not trying to start down an argument or anything.
 

egg_

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An awful lot of what we think/believe is what people around us think/believe. My whole perception of this has changed over the last few years working in a much more international place - I'm continually amazed by how deeply the yanks think America is the world, and how they genuinely believe that they value diversity and the like but are unable to see outside their own bubbles.

We have various ERGs (Employee Resource Groups) focused on "under-represented voices". One of them is the Black/Pan-African ERG, and I couldn't help but smile when, after we hired a bunch of African people, they decided to set up their own ERG cos ... well, I guess because of the plastic paddy factor

So yeah I guess what I'm saying is we're all brainwashed, kinda.
 

Lili Marlene

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Bit of a hot take here, but Russia is not a "middling country". That's the whole crux of the thing.

I also note that some of you seem to think Russia has a plan. The plan has always been there is no plan. Just fuck shit up. They see how wrong the rest of the world is, all they have to do is help that along, it'll make Russia look better. And there is no real why.


Actually there probably is, but that would involve overthinking. He's a troll with nukes, financial reserves, a brainwashed and dispirited electorate and huge resources. And a massive chip on the shoulder.
Well your one of our Russian experts, is it true or not true that it has a middling economy, i.e. in terms of GDP? That's really what I meant. I do concede that is has tremendous power in terms of military and energy and there's a fair argument that that's 9/10 of the whole game in terms of world power.
I guess a few things.

The obvious ones that directly affect the ruling class are sanctions and trade restrictions. The US enables market access, any disruption of that costs people money.

Whatever drives the US to promote their vision of liberal capitalist democracy onto others, something similar is driving an anti democratic authoritarian world view within the current ruling party in Russia. Similar to the US world view, Russia has their world view: democracy is a waste of time / all political parties are the same / all politicians are corrupt / strong man politics / any type of GLBT stuff is bollocks and so on. It's sort of hard to understand why the US or Russia wants to inflict their ruling party's values on others, but they do it.

Also similar to the US, empire building / expansion of power / permission slips for having wars. (They wanted that war / it's a war to save them / it's not really a war.)

Destabilization / divide / zero sum game stuff, polarizing groups within the US to be at each other's necks / Brexit etc results in splitting and paralysis in traditional centers of power, which increases their relative power.

Putting it glibly "money and power". But it's a bit more than that, the US is an empire with weird empire wants, and so is Russia. It's difficult to understand why the US feels the need to do some of its weird empirey things, but they do do them. It might be a kind of future proofing? We don't know exactly what's coming, but if we can control how people think we're more likely to be able to deal with it.

I guess what I learned in DC is that virtually every interest has lobbyists in DC. Even if you're not big enough to directly lobby, say some caribbean country, you'll band up with say a group of other central American guys and act that way. There's countless decisions being made every day, and if you can sway a fraction of a percent of them then it's worth it. It can and is as tiny as someone getting drinks for someone, someone getting some out of marraige hot sex, that leads to a banana and sugar cane factory loan (I think?). If you are in DC long enough you'll end up with lobbyists, in parties, getting drunk, and what happens there influences... I mean, anything from sugar cane deal upwards. Ahead of time you don't plan it out, you can't see the future, but you put all the pieces in play to make sure you get closer to the result you want. But yeah, EVERY decision made in DC is influenced by lobbyists. And Russia isn't going to be the single entity to stand above it all and decide they can't stomach it.

Having said that, I didn't actually go to parties and so on with Russian lobbysts doing work in the open, I didn't actually watch them work in the way I watched the Israel lobby / south american lobby / carrib & central american ones. I can't say I saw it that way, the closest was at a weird Dem new year eve gig momentarily that was Russian centric, but left because it was out of my depth, not dressed for it, and uncomfortable.

Sorry for the fucking length of the post... too tired to edit.
I don't disagree with your assessment of the USA here but I feel like you're projecting it wholesale onto Russia and saying everything that doesn't line up can be explained away as "+ Russian weirdness." I'm firmly of the belief that 9/10 of the Russian stuff is just the Democrats unwilling to deal with their own failings and looking for scapegoats, the Republicans then lineup to dunk on them and pretend they love Putin but they'd change their mind the second that was no longer applicable.
 

seanc

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Well your one of our Russian experts, is it true or not true that it has a middling economy, i.e. in terms of GDP? That's really what I meant. I do concede that is has tremendous power in terms of military and energy and there's a fair argument that that's 9/10 of the whole game in terms of world power.

No. Russia has best economy. It has best everything. You Westerners, you don't even know. You are the problem.
Point kind of missed there. They're emotional people.


As for what I said about Russians being brainwashed, I had just read this article:

In my experience even the most open minded of them can't believe that that Malaysian plane was shot down using a Russian missile for example, it just can't be. Whereas in Europe/US there's plenty of people who can at least acknowledge that our various governments and military did and do awful things.
 

Lili Marlene

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No. Russia has best economy. It has best everything. You Westerners, you don't even know. You are the problem.
Point kind of missed there. They're emotional people.


As for what I said about Russians being brainwashed, I had just read this article:

In my experience even the most open minded of them can't believe that that Malaysian plane was shot down using a Russian missile for example, it just can't be. Whereas in Europe/US there's plenty of people who can at least acknowledge that our various governments and military did and do awful things.
Is this not just a massive dehumanizing of everyone in Russia, of the kind that usually happens before an invasion and mass slaughter of the inhabitants of a country?
 

flashback

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Quite a speech.


I mean... it's great. But the obsession that exists with Christianity (lunatic fascist interpretations of Christianity or not) that she's echoing is lunacy.
It's everywhere, pervasive within the US. I think this is a Russian saying, but it's biting on granite. It can't be addressed. The obsession with Christ in the moneyed classes, and maybe in others? is everywhere and terrifying.
 

magicbastarder

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the only way to defeat god is with god.
to be fair, though, even though i had the same thought, it's a neat rhetorical trick; instead of arming yourself with better arms, just disarm your assailant. use their own weapon against them.
 

flashback

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the only way to defeat god is with god.
to be fair, though, even though i had the same thought, it's a neat rhetorical trick; instead of arming yourself with better arms, just disarm your assailant. use their own weapon against them.
Yeah yeah. Right.

Like she repeated it a number of times even. I'M WHITE. I'M STRAIGHT. I GO TO CHURCH. I'M ONE OF YOU CUNTS.

And the other side of it is really sinister.

This whole I'm a straight christian is their race card. This is what gets held up as a reflexive defense now against anything going. This is their victim card now. They have to struggle against them athiest pedo queers with their massive control on society.

Well, yes, technically I ploughed my car into the line of kids waiting to go to school after I was up all night on vodka and coke. But you need to stop attacking me for being a WHITE CHRISTIAN WOMAN, it's political correctness gone mad. I love Christ, and my husband. LEAVE ME ALONE.

It doesn't matter what happens, this white christian victim spiel gets whipped out in almost all scenarios.
 

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