Tour de France 2007 thread (1 Viewer)

Cornu Ammonis

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If it was a sportsman on charges of doping for performing like a superhuman I'd hope to be on that jury.

It's depressing. Next time I meet Paul Kimmage for coffee I'll show him this thread.
When have I denied that doping is happening in professional cycling? When did I say that anyone was definitely clean? Evidence works both ways, I don't have the data to say anyone is clean or dirty and until someone produces a blood test or comes forward with a paper trail it is impossible to say from the outside what's going on.

Pointing out similarities with Lance is not the same as evidence. And me saying "might" is not the same thing as saying they're innocent either. In the absence of evidence, everything is conjecture and you can only say "might".

Oh and Kimmage didn't throw piss at Armstrong, he actually dug deep and tried to find... you guessed it, evidence! The reason Armstrong finally admitted is because Kimmage and Walsh uncovered the proof needed to topple him.
 

CinnamonBoy

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It's not impossible, you just have to look at it. You follow the sport almost 20 years, you watch the races, the clips on youtube, you read the books, follow who got banned for what, you have a frank chat with the fucking legend Mr. Kimmage......you don't need to wait for a fucking blood test or a paper trail.

Would you ever fuck off.
 

Unknown Convict

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I... find all the finger pointing unsettling when the only evidence is circumstantial.

drop by the 6 nations thread some time. presumptions of guilt a-go-go.

Next time I meet Paul Kimmage for coffee I'll show him this thread.

did he ever give answers to the questions i put through you? or is he still "looking into"/"reading up on" the sport?

#rakingtheembers
 

Cormcolash

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And that's definitive proof? I'm not actually defending Froome (I've no favourites in the TdF, I enjoy watching what I will never achieve) but find all the finger pointing unsettling when the only evidence is circumstantial. Especially given that people only seem to see one team/individual as being at fault (Froome may be ahead but it's not like the others aren't doing other super human times and performances).

Loads of them are dopers, naturally. You can probably tell the ones that are doping by looking at the top 20, roughly. And then adding in all the Astana team to that, except maybe Nibali, because he's so behind this year that maybe he's actually riding clean.
The problem with the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing when it comes to cycling, is Lance Armstrong.
 

CinnamonBoy

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drop by the 6 nations thread some time. presumptions of guilt a-go-go.



did he ever give answers to the questions i put through you? or is he still "looking into"/"reading up on" the sport?

#rakingtheembers

Omerta is the way in rugby also. Hopefully that changes. Same with GAA. And I 've heard the truth on both straight from the horses mouth.

Your mocking hashtag is disappointing and pathetic.
 

Cornu Ammonis

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It's not impossible, you just have to look at it. You follow the sport almost 20 years, you watch the races, the clips on youtube, you read the books, follow who got banned for what, you have a frank chat with the fucking legend Mr. Kimmage......you don't need to wait for a fucking blood test or a paper trail.
Oh sorry, I didn't realise Kimmage told you all this stuff personally! That has totally made throwing piss at someone on a bike seem totally normal and justified.

Would you ever fuck off.
Solid point, well made.

Loads of them are dopers, naturally. You can probably tell the ones that are doping by looking at the top 20, roughly. And then adding in all the Astana team to that, except maybe Nibali, because he's so behind this year that maybe he's actually riding clean.
You're probably right in terms of the probability of who is doping but I would still stand by my point that without proof, it's shaky ground to start pointing fingers at specific people.

The problem with the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing when it comes to cycling, is Lance Armstrong.
One person gets away with it for years so you should assume anyone good is doping? And even if you go with that and bring in more rigorous testing (like weekly sampling throughout the year), would you accept the results or would you assume that the best are probably beating the tests with masking agents or blood transfusions? What level of proof is needed to convince you that a sport is clean?

And at the end of the day, Armstrong was proven guilty and his name is dirt so what's wrong with doing the legwork in exposing people properly? You guys seem to be very against the idea of proof and think that hearsay and second hand rumours are enough. I'm not saying that the rumours are wrong but that surely it would be better to be able to say for certain, with material to back it up, who was doping and sanction them as much as possible. Or should we just take the top 20 cyclists in the world, tell them they perform too well so they must be doping and ban them all from professional cycling? You'd get a load of dopers for sure but there's probably a couple of guys who are doing it by the book.
 

CinnamonBoy

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You two don't have a fucking clue.

Geraint fucking Thomas riding up mountains like Pantani and you'd feel uneasy to point the finger. Are you for real?

The dopers are always ahead of the testers. Wanna see a clean rider? It's Dani Martin suffering like a dog the day after putting in a big effort. That's what clean cycling looks like. Compare it to Sky, Astana, BMC etc etc

Throwing piss wouldn't be my way of protesting. I'd have Verbruggen, Ferrari, Brailsford, Mc Quaid, I could be here all day....all up against a wall/banned from even watching a cycling race for life.
 

Cornu Ammonis

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You two don't have a fucking clue.
Oh there are clues but no definitive proof in the public domain. Unless I've missed something like a used needle in a bin or something? What's your problem with evidence?

Geraint fucking Thomas riding up mountains like Pantani and you'd feel uneasy to point the finger. Are you for real?
Yes. If I was in their cycling shoes or being accused of fraud in work, I'd like to have some evidence presented against me before I was sanctioned rather than a load of people saying "it looks too good, therefore cheating". And as I keep saying (but I'll highlight it here so you don't miss it again and again) I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE CLEAN BUT THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME FUCKING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT CLAIMS AGAINST SOMEONE. That's how society is generally meant to work.

The dopers are always ahead of the testers.
And that can be changed by UCI changing its testing rules. Write emails to sponsors, get a ground swell going if you actually want to clean up cycling or do you prefer having a moan online?

Wanna see a clean rider? It's Dani Martin suffering like a dog the day after putting in a big effort. That's what clean cycling looks like. Compare it to Sky, Astana, BMC etc etc
Again, that may be what it looks like but without evidence statements like that mean nothing. Martin could be doping but doing it less so as to be competitive but less obvious a target for testing. How do you know otherwise? And I'm not saying he is, I'm just looking at it logically and holding him to the same standard as the others.
 

Cormcolash

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You two don't have a fucking clue.

Geraint fucking Thomas riding up mountains like Pantani and you'd feel uneasy to point the finger. Are you for real?

The dopers are always ahead of the testers. Wanna see a clean rider? It's Dani Martin suffering like a dog the day after putting in a big effort. That's what clean cycling looks like. Compare it to Sky, Astana, BMC etc etc

Throwing piss wouldn't be my way of protesting. I'd have Verbruggen, Ferrari, Brailsford, Mc Quaid, I could be here all day....all up against a wall/banned from even watching a cycling race for life.

Fucking right like, especially the likes of Thomas going up a mountain as if they've been doing it all their lives. Pile of shite! Even ex-riders like Jalabert, a guy that turned from sprinter to climber and was almost certainly on loads of fucking shit himself when he did it, are starting to call them out on this stuff. People who rode the tour until quite recently, were there in the middle of all the doping, are saying that what teams like Sky and BMC are doing has to be questioned.
Seriously like, when these guys are riding up mountains as if they are fucking flat, the onus isn't even on us to prove they are guilty of doping – it's on them to prove they are clean, and we're certainly not seeing teams like Sky or Astana being anywhere remotely close to transparent when it comes to documenting training regimes and progress of their riders each season.
And any amateur in any sport will tell you that the doping is years ahead of the detection, and has been for decades.
 

Cormcolash

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And at the end of the day, Armstrong was proven guilty and his name is dirt so what's wrong with doing the legwork in exposing people properly?

It took somewhere around 10 years to expose Armstrong properly. 10 years of denial, of Armstrong bullying people, and of people who worked for him getting their careers and lives ruined by Team Armstrong, both in the courts and outside the courts. Fuck that.
We are talking about things that are blatantly fucking obvious to look at, that the honest people in the sport are consistently questioning and calling out themselves, and you're saying let's just ignore it until the time we might be able to prove it, maybe in 10 years or so, regardless of the effect it is already having on everyone else that is losing out as a result of it.
Fuck that.
 

Cornu Ammonis

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But Cormo, he's done with this thread.

People would fucking sicken you sometimes.

I don't get why you're so aggressive, @Cormcolash can argue the toss without calling me names or telling me to get the fuck out of this thread. If you can't have a discussion without shouting me down, why should I bother to engage with you?
 

Cornu Ammonis

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yeah maybe if you get your head out of the fucking sand
But it's a myth that ostriches put their head in the sand, I thought he was saying I was a fast runner which is why I paid him the compliment of being an osprey. I mean look at this beautiful fucker:
 

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