The Russian invasion of Ukraine (3 Viewers)

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India and China telling Russia to calm the fuck down
If that's even worth anything at this point

The Ukrainians definitely did that bridge bomb

I know this because I knew for almost certain that Ukraine didn't kill your man's daughter there in the Moscow car bomb, which it turns out they almost certainly did

Feel bad for your man almost. Not one fuck given in the Kremlin when his daughter is blown to bits on home turf.
Holy hell unleashed after a bridge is blown up.
 
Any mention of such considerations on Twitter, where it is always 1938

Laughed at that.

But also what a very depressing read.

Some vague thoughts: anytime I read about the Cold War these days it's just all these stories about world brinkmanship by the great powers that always gets to a point where the USSR goes "let's not escalate things any further" and the USA immediately responds with "THEY'RE WEAK, ESCALATE THINGS." It shows my own biases in what I'm reading but it appears to be also pretty historically accurate.

This article is basically saying the same kind of scenario now but in a modern world where political pygmies are in charge, and Russia is fighting a war almost entirely about Putin's ego, and the inwardly looking USA/UK governments fund a proxy war while feeling incredibly self conscious about their own crumbling empires and waning influence.

Battle of the losers but they both have nukes.
 
"What began as a criminal Russian aggression against Ukraine "

Aggression was 2014
What we got in February was an attempt to wipe the largest country in Europe off the map
"Aggression" doesn't quite cover it

"The United States and its European partners have continually upped their military assistance to Ukraine"
Neither of these parties are giving weapons to Ukraine anywhere near as quickly as Ukraine would like. They are literally fighting for their lives over there.

"particularly if the Ukrainians begin to invade Crimea"

Invade? I mean, come on. How can you invade your own country?


This guy is smart, and I'm sure all the Brookings people all do their homework, but tell it like it is, man. Give the Ukrainians some agency.

There's a genocidal maniac running a superpower and he does whatever he wants, kills whoever he wants, anywhere he wants, whenever he wants.
That's the beginning and end of the nuclear threat. Not a country fighting back against him.
Putin is losing and he rattles his nukes. And a thousand thinkpieces get written.

If the threat is so imminent, let Putin's pals in China and India and Riyadh step in.
If China thinks this is their century, have a fucking word on the phone to Moscow so.


The corollary of this whole thing is that he's got nukes, so he can invade any former Soviet republic with impunity and no one can say 'boo'. Fuck that.
These people deserve to have their country.
 

People should read this, condemn Putin's actions, and then google how many times the USA and the UK have said "nothing is off the table" in a military context over the past 20 years, and maybe reflect on whether or not such mindless rhetoric has added up to a safer world.

No one running a state with nuclear weapons will be wholly free from blame if a nuclear bomb goes off in this war.
 
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People should read this, condemn Putin's actions, and then google how many times the USA and the UK have said "nothing is off the table" in a military context over the past 20 years, and maybe reflect on whether or not such mindless rhetoric has added up to a safer world.

No one running a state with nuclear weapons will be wholly free from blame if a nuclear bomb goes off in this war.

At the risk of being difficult- how many times in the past 20 years have Uk or USA overtly or implicitly threatened to use nuclear weapons in your opinion? Just trying to understand the point.

Agree the former Cold War powers are ultimately still responsible for any subsequent nuclear exchange
 
At the risk of being difficult- how many times in the past 20 years have Uk or USA overtly or implicitly threatened to use nuclear weapons in your opinion? Just trying to understand the point.
Overtly, probably never except maybe in the last few weeks. Implicitly, what does "nothing is off the table" mean? I'm not reading any "but not nuclear" clauses. Here's some page 1 examples




Obviously they benefit from the ambiguity but the threat is there.


Agree the former Cold War powers are ultimately still responsible for any subsequent nuclear exchange
I'm just trying to say that history exists before 2014 and we should hold people to the same standards.
 

People should read this, condemn Putin's actions, and then google how many times the USA and the UK have said "nothing is off the table" in a military context over the past 20 years, and maybe reflect on whether or not such mindless rhetoric has added up to a safer world.

No one running a state with nuclear weapons will be wholly free from blame if a nuclear bomb goes off in this war.

"But America did it, so it's basically ok for Russia to do it" is the most tired, worn out trope of this whole thing

With the side serving of "if Putin does it, it's actually America's fault really, like what did you expect?"



There's a murderous madman running a country, but it's always everyone else's fault
 
Overtly, probably never except maybe in the last few weeks. Implicitly, what does "nothing is off the table" mean? I'm not reading any "but not nuclear" clauses. Here's some page 1 examples




Obviously they benefit from the ambiguity but the threat is there.



I'm just trying to say that history exists before 2014 and we should hold people to the same standards.


The distinction is that the US and UK say these things and no one goes off with their hair on fire and writes endless stories about how it's actually going to happen - because they know they are basically just restating the status quo



Putin rattles his missiles and it's all "He's going to do it!!!" with a subtext of 'why did you force him to do it?'


The problem is and remains Putin
 
"But America did it, so it's basically ok for Russia to do it" is the most tired, worn out trope of this whole thing

With the side serving of "if Putin does it, it's actually America's fault really, like what did you expect?"
Who are you quoting there? Stop making up things I didn't say just so you can get mad at them.

There's a murderous madman running a country, but it's always everyone else's fault
Your the one who thinks more war will end the war. Explain how this will end well for Ukraine and Putin will back down because I'm all ears to hear a practical way of ending this war.

The distinction is that the US and UK say these things and no one goes off with their hair on fire and writes endless stories about how it's actually going to happen - because they know they are basically just restating the status quo


Putin rattles his missiles and it's all "He's going to do it!!!" with a subtext of 'why did you force him to do it?'


The problem is and remains Putin
It won't fucking matter whose fault it is and who was purest in their heart of hearts when the mushroom clouds are rising all over Europe.

My point is that I do not trust or believe the motives of the countries who have spent decades rattling missiles themselves, who have proven untrustworthy, deceitful allies, have launched illegal wars, overthrown elected governments, fermented coups, installed dictators and supported dictatorial regimes, and have committed countless war crimes themselves. It is possible to think this and also think that there is no justification for this war, in fact it takes a lot less doublethink.
 
I don't actually really like grandstanding and falling out with my various thumped mates, even those who hate my guts, so genuine question: is there anything decent written that makes the argument that this war has to keep happening, and has to keep on pushing and here's how it won't end in nuclear war and Putin will collapse or be killed, and whoever replaces him won't continue it?
 
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I got some records from a guy in Turku during the week. Very noisy stuff!

ultimately as many have said, Ukraine can't defeat Russia, Putin is a megalomaniac w/ nukes, NATO - as ever - are 'not helping' the situation and care more about the arms industry than Ukrainians.
this is the biggest risk of nuclear war since at least the Cuban missile crisis.
as unpalatable as it is, talks to end the war are the only real solution.
Putin will get the territories he invaded and has destroyed. otherwise this will escalate and have even more dire consequences for the whole world. Ukraine will have to stay out of NATO and the EU.

and that's the easy part. how wankstain Putin can rebuild his interational relations after this I don't know.
 
I think that the russians are going to launch a pretty huge counterattack in november and upset everyone’s expectations all over again.

like they’re in the middle of equipping an extra 300,000 lads, they’ve got to do something with them. china and india have just closed their embassies in ukraine again. lots of new activity on the belarus-ukraine border. winter is on the way.

but let’s see — I’ve been wrong plenty of times so far about all of this
 

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