Referendum 2012: It's On (1 Viewer)

[therealjohnny]

Maybe some of these creatures are radioactive and will give their victims superhuman lizard powers!

vote no!

or, alternatively,

vote yes!

 

[rettucs]

changed my mind again. I'm back to voting No

 

[washingcattle]

Right now bear with me here, A. I'm a bit pissed and B. I'm new to this and this is a serious question. If the yes vote ties us into a system where by our economic future is controlled even more by the european parliment rather than our own government, then given the recent record of our own government is that really a bad thing ? I mean I don't really blame the E.U for austerity measures, I blame our idiotic government, would it not be more of a fuck you to the lads in charge to say we don't fucking trust you, Fuck off.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

They're loan sharks as far as I can see. If we don't say yes they'll kneecap us

 

[ann post]

i'm not sure what i'm going to vote but i will probably hang about the polling station all day to get a wee look at pearse doherty again. swoon.

 

[washingcattle]

They're loan sharks as far as I can see. If we don't say yes they'll kneecap us

That's what I'm getting from it. In a way though, you can trust a loan shark as they have a vested interest in our recovery.

 

[rettucs]

Right now bear with me here, A. I'm a bit pissed and B. I'm new to this and this is a serious question. If the yes vote ties us into a system where by our economic future is controlled even more by the european parliment rather than our own government, then given the recent record of our own government is that really a bad thing ? I mean I don't really blame the E.U for austerity measures, I blame our idiotic government, would it not be more of a fuck you to the lads in charge to say we don't fucking trust you, Fuck off.

it sounds like you know what this referendum is about. Moreso than I do anyway.

 

[rettucs]

i'm not sure what i'm going to vote but i will probably hang about the polling station all day to get a wee look at pearse doherty again. swoon.

take pictures and post them on facebook

 

[therealjohnny]

Right now bear with me here, A. I'm a bit pissed and B. I'm new to this and this is a serious question. If the yes vote ties us into a system where by our economic future is controlled even more by the european parliment rather than our own government, then given the recent record of our own government is that really a bad thing ? I mean I don't really blame the E.U for austerity measures, I blame our idiotic government, would it not be more of a fuck you to the lads in charge to say we don't fucking trust you, Fuck off.

True, but I don't think the EU has the welfare of the common man's best interests at heart. It's all about maintaining the status quo.
So we can get fucked by them or get fucked by our own crowd. I hear they make passionate lovers though..and they dress better

 

[Cryptid]

This is the wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact. Interesting enough reading.

[rambling post]

I don't think we're ceeding power to the European Parliament as such, but rather to the European Council (i.e. the monthy get together of the various heads of state, usually represented by the finance ministers - please correct me if I'm wrong on this).

It seems to me to very anti-Keynesian - a state's spending must stay within certain limits regardless of the economic conditions and position on the business cycle. It doesn't say what the money should be spent on either. A rising proportion of it, in our case, seems to on banks, which doesn't do the economy much good - sorry, I don't have figures on that.

Is Keynesianism a pipe dream? Is it incompatible with democracy? Very few voted to put on the brakes when our growth rates were high and now that they're flat-lining, few (albeit more) seem to be in favour of spending (apart from wrt to the banks) to stimulate the economy. Fianna Fail to a certain extent bought elections with promises of big spends when the state-coffers were high. And Fine Gael have won a recession-election on an austerity mandate. Totally anti-Keynesian and totally barmy, unless boom and bust make for good economic policy.

Arguably, the idea of economic growth as an indictor of the well being of an economy is flawed anyway. It's more to do with the social conditions, infrastructure etc.

I think Referenda are the only time when we get a real say on policy matters. I'd prefer voting for that kind of thing rather than for the ubiquitous joke politicians.

[/rambling post]

 

[rettucs]

This is the wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact. Interesting enough reading.

 

[washingcattle]

True, but I don't think the EU has the welfare of the common man's best interests at heart. It's all about maintaining the status quo.
So we can get fucked by them or get fucked by our own crowd. I hear they make passionate lovers though..and they dress better

At the moment as far as I can see maintaining the status quo is about as much as anyone can hope for. Keeping heads above water is a mammoth task which essentially is all the common man can hope for.

it sounds like you know what this referendum is about. Moreso than I do anyway.

I don't. but I have given up believing that our government has a clue how to help any of us. The E.U would get the pubs open 24 hours.

 

[therealjohnny]

I'm inclined to think it's more a case of it's broken beyond repair, but we'll keep on throwing money at it until it works again

 

[shower another shower]

ye can't borrow your way out of debt.

 

[rettucs]

I was listening to the radio earlier and now I know what its about. It should be called the 'make sure you behave yourself referendum'.

the best way I can think of to explain it is to use an analogy. Say you want to go drink your head off. But drinking your head off leads to you getting very sick and ruining your nice new riding shirt. Say then the government were so concerned about you getting sick on your shirt that they decided to remove all the alcohol from the world except for 1 can, but gave you that can. And thats alright, you can have that can, even go into a field and drink it. But if somehow you managed to sneakily get a second can and drink that too they would fuck you very very much.

geddit now?

 

[washingcattle]

I thought I did, but It's becoming less clear now.

 

[D0njo]

I did but now I'm drunk. So.. it's actually grand!

 

[rettucs]

I got the leaflet in the door about a referendum called the 'stability treaty'. But I thought it was called the 'fiscal treaty'. Or is it the 'austerity treaty'?

hard to take this seriously at all. But it is most worrying that the so-called 'impartial' referendum board refer to it as the 'stability treaty'. Another reason to vote against it.

 

[Psycho Punk]

Farmers for a No Vote? Hmmm, maybe I should reconsider my stance.

‘Farmers for No’ Press Statement


The Press Conference will officially launch our campaign for a No Vote in the forthcoming referendum on the EU Fiscal Compact / Stability Treaty and will be attended by Independent TD’s Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan and Thomas Pringle who will be our guest speakers.

Also Professor Anthony Coughlan, (Associate Professor Emeritus in Social Policy, TCD, and Director of the National Platform EU Research and Information Centre, 24 Crawford Avenue, Dublin 9), will attend as a guest speaker in his capacity as an expert on European Treaty Law.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the media, you are formally invited to a Press Conference of our referendum campaign group, ‘Farmers for No’, which is to be held in Buswell’s Hotel, Molesworth Street, Dublin, on Thursday next, May 10, at 3.00 pm in the Georgian suite.

The Press Conference will officially launch our campaign for a No Vote in the forthcoming referendum on the EU Fiscal Compact / Stability Treaty and will be attended by Independent TD’s Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan and Thomas Pringle who will be our guest speakers.

Also Professor Anthony Coughlan, (Associate Professor Emeritus in Social Policy, TCD, and Director of the National Platform EU Research and Information Centre, 24 Crawford Avenue, Dublin 9), will attend as a guest speaker in his capacity as an expert on European Treaty Law.

Our group is composed of past and present Officers of both the IFA and the Irish Cattle and Sheepfarmers’ Association.
The Chairman of ‘Farmers for No’, is James Reynolds from Longford, who was Chairman of Longford IFA County Executive between 1999 and 2003. James Reynolds is also a former member of IFA Industry & Environment, Rural Development and Farm Business Committees and was also Chairman of the ‘Farmers for No’ to Lisbon campaign of 2009.

Vice-Chairman of ‘Farmers for No’, is David Thompson from Limerick, who is a former Chairman of Limerick IFA County Executive, as well as being a member of the Campaign management team of former IFA President, John Dillon. David is also a former member of IFA Dairy and Animal Health Committees and is currently Vice-Chairman of Limerick IFA County Executive.

PRO of ‘Farmers for No’, is Cllr Billy Clancy, Member of North Tipperary County Council and who is a farmer by profession. Secretary of ‘Farmers for No’, is Peter Fox from Longford, who is a former Chairman of the National Beef Committee of the Irish Cattle and Sheepfarmers’ Association and currently Chairman of Longford ICSA County Executive.
To date in this short referendum campaign the debate on the EU Fiscal Compact / Stability Treaty has been primarily based on party political considerations and an over eagerness on the part of those in the Yes campaign to submit unquestioningly to EU diktat even to the point of grossly misrepresenting the facts about this Treaty and misleading the public of the effects on Irish society and the economy of it’s ratification.

Firstly let me indulge your desire for information on what the likely consequences of that ratification would be for this country and indeed for the Family of European Nations.

On May 31 the Irish People will have the choice to accept or reject the “PERMANENT Austerity Treaty”, also known as the EU Fiscal Compact Treaty or Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union.
By accepting this Treaty we would be PERMANENTLY handing over ABSOLUTE control of Fiscal Policy or the ability of elected Irish Governments to frame our own Budgets, to the NEW ‘Troika’ of the EU Commission, ECB and European Court of Justice.

This handing over of ABSOLUTE control of Fiscal or Domestic Taxation Policy will result in even MORE POWER FOR UNELECTED TECHNOCRATS IN BRUSSELS AND LUXEMBOURG.

The Fiscal Compact Treaty gives wide-ranging powers to the UNELECTED EU Commission and EU Court of Justice.
Failure to implement the strict austerity conditions will result in the ECJ imposing fines of 0.1% of GDP or approximately €200 million per annum in the case of this State.
This is nothing less than a Power grab by the UNELECTED Brussels based elite that controls EU Policy, which would mean if the Treaty is ratified, a PERMANENT SURRENDER OF THE LAST VESTIGES OF OUR NATIONAL ECONOMIC SOVEREIGNTY instead of regaining that economic sovereignty that has been already ceded by way of allowing the ‘Troika’ to dictate our current Fiscal Policy on a temporary basis because of the disastrous ‘Bank Guarantee’ enacted by the previous discredited Fianna Fail/Green Government.

In other words, the Irish People are being asked by those advocates of a Yes Vote to exchange the temporary surrender of our economic sovereignty by way of the handing over of effective control of our Fiscal Policy to the ‘occupying power’ of the ‘Troika’ of the EU Commission / European Central Bank and IMF for a PERMANENT surrender of our economic sovereignty to the New ‘Troika’ of the EU Commission / ECB and European Court of Justice! ...

The forthcoming Referendum on the EU Fiscal Compact Treaty must be a plebiscite on the UNJUST BANK DEBT. If the Irish People Vote No on May 31, this democratic decision must be respected and must be a MANDATE TO DEFAULT ON THE UNJUST BANK DEBT BURDEN THAT IS SINKING OUR ECONOMY. It is the loading of this ‘Bank Debt’ on top of the country’s Sovereign National Debt that is preventing Ireland from borrowing on the financial markets at low interest cost.

Defaulting on this UNJUST BANK DEBT would enable Ireland to borrow funds on the financial markets by selling Irish Sovereign Bonds at reasonable interest cost and avert any risk of the country depending on a yet to be created ESM Rescue Fund that could be denied to the country because of our correct decision to reject the Fiscal Treaty.
Also the decision to Default on the Unjust Bank Debt would enable this country to exit the current ‘Bailout’ programme overseen by the ‘Troika’.
It is also our contention that Ireland’s economic interest would be best served by Exiting the Euro-zone that has had such a catastrophic impact on our economy and society since we joined the failed currency zone in 1999.

Within one decade of Ireland joining the Euro-zone in 1999 and ditching the successful floating Punt, our Pre-Building Bubble economy had been transformed from one that was thriving and was the envy of other countries to the basketcase that it is today. ...

Also because we joined the Euro-zone the ECB lowered interest rates which further FUELLED House prices and saddled young families with UNAFFORDABLE MORTGAGE DEBT while at the same time condemned a large proportion of our population to the open prison of wholesale housing stock in negative equity. ...

Also the Fiscal Compact will have a devastating impact on Irish and European Agriculture:

1) Guaranteed funding of the CAP Budget Post – 2013 that is so necessary to protect the solvency of the Irish Family Farm model of Agriculture will be seriously undermined as the EU will dip into the CAP Budget in order to secure sufficiency of funding for the ESM Rescue Fund that requires in excess of €700 Billion.

This view is supported by Alan Matthews, Professor Emeritus of European Agricultural Policy, Trinity College Dublin, on the EU Summit of December 9, 2011 that decided on the €700 Billion ESM Rescue Fund.

He said in the Irish Examiner on December 15, 2011 that :

“Safeguarding the CAP Budget must be increasingly in doubt after last week’s fateful EU Summit”.

2) Prices for food and agricultural products will be likely to fall due to austerity throughout our export markets in Europe.

Again this view is supported by Professor Matthews, who also said in that December 15 article in the Irish Examiner, that : “The growing likelihood of an EU recession next year, possibly inducing further economic turmoil beyond the continent, will lower demand for agricultural output and could lead to another collapse in output prices”.

Also Professor Matthews said in capreform.eu blog that : “Difficulties in Europe’s banking sector will curtail credit to farmers and to the small and medium-sized enterprises which make up the bulk of the EU’s food industry …the EU’s prized single market in agricultural and food products could come under threat”. ...

5) Farm Family members working in off-farm employment will have their wages and salaries cut even more because of enforced austerity.

6) Social Welfare payments to farm families, such as old age pensions will have to be reduced and Income supports such as Farm Assist will be likely to be scrapped because of enforced austerity.

‘Farmers for No’ are very critical of the larger farming organisations, namely the IFA, ICMSA, Macra na Feirme and ICOS for their failure to allow democratic discussion and debate amongst their grassroots members before making a considered decision on the Fiscal Treaty. ...

Over the next few weeks ‘Farmers for No’ intend to drive home the message that the EU Fiscal Compact Treaty must be rejected if we as a nation are to have any hope of achieving economic recovery and create a roadmap for a prosperous future for all of the Irish People.

In light of the recent developments with the election of the new French President, Francois Hollande, the collapse of the Dutch Government and the rejection by the Greek people of the ‘Merkozy’ Austerity agenda in Sunday’s General Election in Greece, our task must be a lot easier as it is apparent that the peoples of Europe are looking for the Irish People to lead in formally rejecting the Fiscal Compact as we are the only EU Member State that is having a Referendum on the Treaty.

 

[Unicron]

I got the leaflet in the door about a referendum called the 'stability treaty'. But I thought it was called the 'fiscal treaty'. Or is it the 'austerity treaty'?

hard to take this seriously at all. But it is most worrying that the so-called 'impartial' referendum board refer to it as the 'stability treaty'. Another reason to vote against it.

No people have referred to it as the austerity treaty, if you were trying to propose something you wouldn't call it the "kick you in the balls" plan and try to convince people to go along with it. Stability is a nice sounding word, I don't think that them calling it a nice sounding word that actually relates to what the aim is is a reason to vote against it.

It's hardly on the level of calling a fuck the gays law a defence of marriage act.