Racism in Ireland (1 Viewer)

hermie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
6,898
Location
blemmer
Website
Visit site
Actually, I just listened to it. Probably wouldn't take the teacher's side on this one. I think he's actually obfuscating the issue by talking about censorship and what happened in 1950s Ireland. The 2 things aren't the same here at all. In 1950s Ireland, you had a large powerful organisation, the church, actually banning and censoring films and books. And that practice continued up until the 1990s. Nirvana and REM had videos banned from Irish TV back then due to their blasphemous content.
What people asking for here is an update of text on the Junior Cert Syllabus to better reflect the times that we live in, it's not the same thing at all. No one's asking for these books to be banned or removed from the shelves. It's a relatively similar issue to what's happening in American Colleges. People have requested that more authors of colour be studied, and people are going nuts about it because it's almost being deemed sacreligious that someone would dare change the syllabus, as if the syllabus was a sacred document handed down from God. Rather than a collection of books that the head of faculty that is open to change at any time.
I think it was the other person who was obfuscating the argument. Talking about walking around town seeing White Lives Matter graffiti. While obviously it's nowhere near as bad as banning books, removing it from the syllabus is still a form of censorship. I don't think he's wrong to say that. The teacher agrees that more authors of colour should be on the syllabus so we're all agreed on that.
 

Unicron

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
May 21, 2003
Messages
16,986
Location
Near Cybertron
Website
theformersovietreublic.bandcamp.com
Fash twitter tying themselves in knots today claiming that yellow vest ireland is an astroturfed Sinn Fein front. Someone has been circulating screenshots claiming that YV's address in the data protection section of their is the same as SF's in Parnell st. Haven't looked close enough to see if it's a shop but feels a bit like cackhanded smear.
 

egg_

nerd/hippy
Supporter
Since 1999
Joined
Nov 15, 1999
Messages
10,928
Location
Where dogs wear hats and birds fly backwards
it was funny that all the people i saw arguing on twitter about it, with the 'this is an incredibly powerful book on racism and it'd be a retrograde step to ban it' argument, were all white
The vast majority of people in Ireland are white, in fairness. I only see two black people in Aodhan whatsisname's thread, and they're both arguing that the book shouldn't be removed
 

magicbastarder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
6,447
Website
stroma.org
The vast majority of people in Ireland are white, in fairness.
true, but the point stands. most of them are coming at the book from one direction - a direction from which they justifiably got value from the book, but that does not mean someone coming from a different direction might have a different experience, and a more visceral one at that.
 

sleepy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
2,432
Website
www.facebook.com
I think it was the other person who was obfuscating the argument. Talking about walking around town seeing White Lives Matter graffiti. While obviously it's nowhere near as bad as banning books, removing it from the syllabus is still a form of censorship. I don't think he's wrong to say that. The teacher agrees that more authors of colour should be on the syllabus so we're all agreed on that.

I pretty much disagree with everything you've just said there. In my view, removing a book from a school syllabus and updating it is not the same as censorship. The book is still available for anyone to read at any time. What's happening here is that people are being asked to examine their attitudes to a piece of art within the context of the current cultural climate, seeing whether it's still relevant or not and seeing if other viewpoints can be brought in to the mix. I think, and this is just me, what Ola was highlighting when she mentioned the graffiti was how our country has changed in recent years and that maybe our education system hasn't been quick enough to react to this
In some ways, I'm seeing a parallel between this and the whole Fairytale of New York thing from a few years back. What happened there was a 2FM DJ put out a tweet saying that maybe we should look at whether screaming "Faggot" for a whole month every December is the soundest thing to do nowadays. Next thing, everyone's twitter feed was full of middle aged blokes shouting "Censorship! They've banned Christmas songs from the Radjo." Which was complete bullshit.
 

ann post

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Oct 13, 2002
Messages
22,417
Location
Internment Explorer sp3
I'm not too comfortable with the idea that some kid might have to be the only POC in a room and have to sit through a class with that. but to make the same point i made above in more words, some book from years ago in america does not need to be in our education system - it isn't an intrinsic part of anything here, if it is there to somehow teach people about race relations through the medium of an interpretation of american literature from another century in a non gun carrying country then that is an absolutely absurb way to go about it when we have things like, for example, history class. I just think I came out of english class (FYI i did TKAM at school) feeling like i'd been dragged through a bunch of shakespeare and a few american novels, only to find irish books later that were soooo much more relatable to me, and actually written and set in the county i grew up it. But for some reason we are having a discussion about how its mission critical to have a book from another country and another century as some binary discussion. Fucking madness.
 

magicbastarder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
6,447
Website
stroma.org
there's an interesting question - what irish books *are* on the curriculum? is there a balance being struck between relating to kids with books they *do* understand, while also 'challenging' (word used advisedly and clumsily) them with scenarios and viewpoints they don't necessarily already have an experiential hook into?
 

hermie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
6,898
Location
blemmer
Website
Visit site
I pretty much disagree with everything you've just said there. In my view, removing a book from a school syllabus and updating it is not the same as censorship. The book is still available for anyone to read at any time. What's happening here is that people are being asked to examine their attitudes to a piece of art within the context of the current cultural climate, seeing whether it's still relevant or not and seeing if other viewpoints can be brought in to the mix. I think, and this is just me, what Ola was highlighting when she mentioned the graffiti was how our country has changed in recent years and that maybe our education system hasn't been quick enough to react to this
In some ways, I'm seeing a parallel between this and the whole Fairytale of New York thing from a few years back. What happened there was a 2FM DJ put out a tweet saying that maybe we should look at whether screaming "Faggot" for a whole month every December is the soundest thing to do nowadays. Next thing, everyone's twitter feed was full of middle aged blokes shouting "Censorship! They've banned Christmas songs from the Radjo." Which was complete bullshit.
Well obviously we're not going to agree but for me it absolutely is a form of censorship. The JC curriculum is already a choice between a large group of works (perhaps the list should be more diverse, probably it should I'm not familiar with it). A teacher can choose not to do Lee or Steinbeck and can take on board the dynamics of the class, the opinions of students/parents etc. But by saying this book cannot be taught for this reason (a pretty flimsy reason I would argue), you are giving ammo to idiots. You tackle racism with education not with shutting down discussion and narrowing the scope of what can be taught.
 

hermie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
6,898
Location
blemmer
Website
Visit site
I'm not too comfortable with the idea that some kid might have to be the only POC in a room and have to sit through a class with that. but to make the same point i made above in more words, some book from years ago in america does not need to be in our education system - it isn't an intrinsic part of anything here, if it is there to somehow teach people about race relations through the medium of an interpretation of american literature from another century in a non gun carrying country then that is an absolutely absurb way to go about it when we have things like, for example, history class. I just think I came out of english class (FYI i did TKAM at school) feeling like i'd been dragged through a bunch of shakespeare and a few american novels, only to find irish books later that were soooo much more relatable to me, and actually written and set in the county i grew up it. But for some reason we are having a discussion about how its mission critical to have a book from another country and another century as some binary discussion. Fucking madness.
So all the books on the curriculum should be Irish and from the 21st century??
 

ann post

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Oct 13, 2002
Messages
22,417
Location
Internment Explorer sp3
there's an interesting question - what irish books *are* on the curriculum? is there a balance being struck between relating to kids with books they *do* understand, while also 'challenging' (word used advisedly and clumsily) them with scenarios and viewpoints they don't necessarily already have an experiential hook into?

I'm being stupidly personal here but i read Patrick McGills books in my late twenties, which largely were like reading a biography of my grandfather i never met. (the life arc was really similar) and it connected me more with my own past and the irish rural mans experience with being an off shore labourer. I grew up 20 miles from where this author was from and went through the whole of school without seeing a word he'd written. Now obvs that is personal but i think edna o brien has tapped into the womens experience and obvs the list goes on and on and on. much like i think about music, i'd be happy for offshore literature to be a footnote in our education. It'd be nice to have some introduction to the polish canon seeing that is part of who we are now.
 

sleepy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
2,432
Website
www.facebook.com
I'm not too comfortable with the idea that some kid might have to be the only POC in a room and have to sit through a class with that. but to make the same point i made above in more words, some book from years ago in america does not need to be in our education system - it isn't an intrinsic part of anything here, if it is there to somehow teach people about race relations through the medium of an interpretation of american literature from another century in a non gun carrying country then that is an absolutely absurb way to go about it when we have things like, for example, history class. I just think I came out of english class (FYI i did TKAM at school) feeling like i'd been dragged through a bunch of shakespeare and a few american novels, only to find irish books later that were soooo much more relatable to me, and actually written and set in the county i grew up it. But for some reason we are having a discussion about how its mission critical to have a book from another country and another century as some binary discussion. Fucking madness.

Yup, I'd totally agree with you there.
I actually didn't do TKAM for my Junior Cert. I did Across the Barricades. It was a bit more relevant at the time but not totally because I lived down in the Midlands and wasn't anywhere near the Troubles.
Actually one thing that I remember from 2nd class in primary school, I would have been about 7 or 8, was our teacher at the time talking about visiting Apartheid era South Africa and how awful it was. And really drilling in to us that we're all the same as people, and that treating people differently because of skin colour is a shitty thing to do. It made a really big impression on me at a very early age. I think I was very fortunate there.
 

magicbastarder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
6,447
Website
stroma.org
this seems to be the list currently. i'd loved to have done ender's game at that age. though isn't orson scott card cancelled now?

ACHEBE, Chinua Things Fall Apart
ALMOND, David The Savage
AUSTEN, Jane Sense and Sensibility
BLACKMAN, Malorie Noughts and Crosses
CONNOLLY, John The Book of Lost Things
CROSSAN, Sarah The Weight of Water
DOWD, Siobhan Bog Child
GLEITZMAN, Morris Once
GOLDING, William Lord of the Flies
HINTON, S.E. The Outsider
KIERNAN, Celine Into the Grey
LEE, Harper To Kill a Mockingbird
MULLIGAN, Andy Trash
ORWELL, George Animal Farm
SCOTT CARD, Orson Ender’s Game
SEPETYS, Ruta Between Shades of Grey
STEINBECK, John Of Mice and Men
STEVENSON, Robert Louis The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
SWINDELLS, Robert Stone Cold
TAMAKI Mariko and Jillian This One Summer (graphic novel)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

We're listening to...

  • WFLYTD NIGHTCORE
    5W3375W3375W337L1K3BUBBL36UM
    six impala
    WFLYTD NIGHTCORE

Support thumped.com

Support thumped.com and upgrade your account

Upgrade your account now to disable all ads... If we had any... Which we don't right now.

Upgrade now

Latest posts

Trending Threads

Latest threads

Top