pride vs rte (1 Viewer)

Deadmanposting

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At the same time the Lia Thomas image was of her winning one race, she had mediocre finishes in the other 2 events she competed in. She's a good college swimmer but nowhere close to doing anything on the international stage (certainly not since FINA have banned her and other transwomen). The picture of her would naturally hit you in the gut, and trigger the idea, "this isn't fair" but there's a wider truth and context that goes beyond one photograph.

And there was a photo of the 2 women she beat on the podium looking pissed off that's been doing the rounds. Apparently they've subsequently said that the image isn't entirely representative of what they thing.

I don't think I saw any particular photos. She looks like a swimmer out there giving it a go.
The unfairness is that she won a national championship (can't recall the distance).
She was not even in the top 500 among the men at the time she competed there at the 200m.

FINA came together and revised the eligibility requirements.
And - I could be wrong- but they left the requirements for men's swimming alone.
They stuck to fairness.

That said, you can't blanket it for all sports.
There's shit like motor racing and equestrian stuff, sailing etc. where it clearly doesn't matter.
I know there's a trans man that's a highly competitive speed walker. There are probably lots of sports where biology doesn't trump gender.

But there's shit like sprinting where even the best female on the planet can be beaten by 100s of boys of Leaving Cert age.
Tennis and swimming seem obvious additions to this.

You gotta take it one by one, and try to bring compassion for all into the decision making.

Dunno how easy that is gonna be tho.
 

Unicron

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I don't think I saw any particular photos. She looks like a swimmer out there giving it a go.
The unfairness is that she won a national championship (can't recall the distance).
She was not even in the top 500 among the men at the time she competed there at the 200m.

FINA came together and revised the eligibility requirements.
And - I could be wrong- but they left the requirements for men's swimming alone.
They stuck to fairness.

The FINA decision by itself doesn't impact Lia Thomas as they make the rules for international swimming and she isn't an international calibre swimmer, the national championship she won (and again, she didn't come close to winning her other events) was a collegiate national championship. It isn't nothing, but I've got college sports medals tool and never came close to winning actual Irish championships, never mind being able to hang with international calibre sportsmen. It's not like she's going to supplant Katie Ledecky as the dominant force in women's swimming. Which is kind of how she's been positioned by people who don't like trans people, or more specifically trans-women, people seem to have far fewer issues with Trans-men.

Where the FINA call does impact her, or may is that the US swimming authority might follow their lead on eligibility, though they're not obliged to.

I wonder if the creation of a separate category for trans-women in US college sports (which in effect what this "open" category is) would have title 9 implications (this is the rule that there must be equal money in college sports assigned to women's and men's sports.)
 

egg_

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I think a lot of the trans stuff has kinda illuminated for me how deeply-held the idea that women need to be protected is. Also how so many men base their idea of their own goodness on seeing themselves as protectors of women
 

therealjohnny

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I think a lot of the trans stuff has kinda illuminated for me how deeply-held the idea that women need to be protected is. Also how so many men base their idea of their own goodness on seeing themselves as protectors of women
A friend of mine refers to Glinner(Graham Linehan) as "King of the Lesbians"
 

Lili Marlene

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The solution to all this is to start giving bonus points for stylish moves, coolest haircut, best soundbite and the like. The holistic Olympics. We have reached the limits of biology in sport and it's time we expanded our minds.
 

Unicron

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Is this essentially the thread about trans issues now?

I thought this was a really interesting piece



So much of the space given over to discussing the existence of trans people is related to trans-women and their place WRT to the wider area of womanhood and in a very nasty way it doesn't seem like there's a lot of attention given to trans-men and their place in the world.

There's a lot of stuff unique to being trans in it, much of which I'd never given much thought to, but I think the writer has some interesting things to say just about the state of being a man. Insecurities about appearance, the lack of expression about that.

Really worth a read I thought.
 

Deadmanposting

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The FINA decision by itself doesn't impact Lia Thomas as they make the rules for international swimming and she isn't an international calibre swimmer, the national championship she won (and again, she didn't come close to winning her other events) was a collegiate national championship. It isn't nothing, but I've got college sports medals tool and never came close to winning actual Irish championships, never mind being able to hang with international calibre sportsmen. It's not like she's going to supplant Katie Ledecky as the dominant force in women's swimming. Which is kind of how she's been positioned by people who don't like trans people, or more specifically trans-women, people seem to have far fewer issues with Trans-men.
I think the thing is that it matters to her her fellow competitors.
National collegiate championships are a huge deal to those taking part - it is the culmination of a lifetime of dedication to that sport.
Plenty of those women feel it is unfair to have to compete against Thomas or anyone with the advantages that male puberty bestows. And FINA after much deliberation, agrees.

Saying that she'll only beat a lot of women, but not all of them doesn't seem like a cohesive argument against this. It just shows what a very average swimmer in male races can achieve in the women's categories.

I think it all comes down to fairness, and the reason we have the distinct categories for women in the first place.
I can't get past the fairness argument that Navratilova, O'Sullivan and Davies et al make about women's sports..


In honesty, all the arguments for having trans women compete against women in sports like these where the advantage is clear, seem like a conclusion in search of a rationale.
 

Unicron

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Oh sorry, I thought you were saying that it was nasty that trans men weren't getting attention, but perhaps you meant that the attention trans women get is nasty?

I do think that the experiences of trans men are probably covered less widely, the writer of that piece mentioned a few things about his life that I'd never really considered and that much of the coverage in the public discussion about trans people is taken up by a focus on trans women and the levels of hostility towards them/the terrible way they are erasing womenhood (delate as appropriate to which side someone is coming from).

I wouldn't say that the lack of attention given to trans-men is nasty but some more time should probably be given to the challenges facing them as they try to live in society . But I do think a lot of the discourse around trans-women is incredibly nasty.

edit: reading my original post back I see where the confusion about my intent was, unclear writing on my part
 

Unicron

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Here's a cis woman who has failed a gender test.

She isn't, AFAIK, xy, or intersex or anything like that, she just has a naturally high occurring level of testosterone in her bod.



Its almost like this is a really complicated subject or soemthing.


There is an undercurrent of racism to all this of course. Women who don't conform to the typical white standards of femininity* are going to become suspect.

* There's also a patriarchal aspect of that, typical white standards of femininity can also be described as "the sort of women your basic men would prefer to have sex with if given the opportunity."
 

egg_

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There is an undercurrent of racism to all this of course. Women who don't conform to the typical white standards of femininity* are going to become suspect.

* There's also a patriarchal aspect of that, typical white standards of femininity can also be described as "the sort of women your basic men would prefer to have sex with if given the opportunity."
Erm ... whether someone gets to compete in women's sport is decided based on how much of a ride "typical white men" think she is? Are you taking the piss here?
 

Cornu Ammonis

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Erm ... whether someone gets to compete in women's sport is decided based on how much of a ride "typical white men" think she is? Are you taking the piss here?
No, he’s saying the women that will get picked out for “gender tests” will be the ones that don’t conform to the Western standards of femininity. Same as every other aspect of life where Western white standards are seen as the norm and everything else deviates from that (see such specialist areas like all of medicine, law, politics, etc.).
 
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