pride vs rte (1 Viewer)

Deadmanposting

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The IRFU has been working on this for years (since 2014, they say) and consulted with the affected players, used current research by independent experts in the fields of physiology, medicine, performance, law, and socioethics
And they came away feeling they had no choice - with their responsibility for fairness and safety - but to keep female contact rugby for those born as women.
They want to keep all other areas of the sport inclusive; tag rugby refereeing, coaching, volunteering etc
And transmen are welcome to continue playing women's rugby (absent of hormone treatments)
They say they will keep reviewing this stance, and continue to engage with the affected players.

This seems to me, like an organisation doing its due diligence to its membership and keeping an open mind.
You may disagree.

As did Moninne Griffith of BelongTo who was on DriveTime, and dismissed all of this independent study as "pseudoscience" and "ignorance", and refused to accept that male puberty conferred physical benefits to those that go through it.
She also said the decision - despite all the caveats and assurances of working toward inclusivity given by IRFU - was driven by transphobia.

As an outside observer, this seems to be the same tactic over and over again.
A refusal to engage on the facts and the realities of the situation and a race to call anyone that disagrees with them as bigots and transphobes.

Also interesting that never once did Moninne make the argument that transwomen are women. No one seems to say that when it comes to sport.


I just want to say, in the interests of disclosure, I fucking hate rugby. Absolute popped-collared cunt sport in my book.
And I think that everyone should be allowed to live the life they want to live with respect and love, but there are distinct and important protections in society needed for women, because too many men are horrible cunts.
 

prefuse

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The IRFU are right. What's next heavy weight boxing?

I'm not much of a sports fan but I'd watch rugby over soccer any day.
 

rettucs

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The IRFU are right. What's next heavy weight boxing?

I'm not much of a sports fan but I'd watch rugby over soccer any day.
the IRFU can impose whatever the fuck rules they want, bunch of cunts, but we're allowed our opinions on them.

I've said it before here and elsewhere that trans rights in sport is a very, VERY, small part of the overall trans rights issue, but its being elevated by nazis and terfs to being the clincher argument of how 'women' are vulnerable, and facilitating trans athletes will create danger.

There are studies about how compatible or otherwise fairness and inclusivity are in the context of trans athletes. Go read those and make up your own mind, but I'm not gonna go into it here.

What I will say is that there are 2 trans Irish women rugby players. One of those plays in England and, thus, is more impacted by RFU than IRFU rules. So the IRFU coming out so publicly with their rule change affects precisely one person. Yet the nazis and terfs are all over this like they're after winning world war 3.

fuck the IRFU, clumsy bunch of cunts. fuck them to hell for enabling nazis.
 
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magicbastarder

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it must infuriate those who get exercised (pun unintended) about trans athletes, that if they tried a similar argument about the recent success of irish athletes breaking irish records - that if they tried the 'well, *their* families clearly aren't originally from ballyhaunis' argument, they'd be jumped on from a height.
 

Unicron

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it must infuriate those who get exercised (pun unintended) about trans athletes, that if they tried a similar argument about the recent success of irish athletes breaking irish records - that if they tried the 'well, *their* families clearly aren't originally from ballyhaunis' argument, they'd be jumped on from a height.

I've deliberately not clicked on any tweets about these kids' achievements in the euros this week that've been posted by balls or secondcaptains or whoever because I know reading the replies will probably depress me.
 

Deadmanposting

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Rugby is a sport for cunts. No argument from me.
But the sex-based differences between men and women are most obvious in physical competition.
As this trans debate goes on, the sports issue will continue to get engagement because it's patently obvious to the wider public what the terms and stakes are. This is simply an easier thing to understand for most people, and fairness is an intuitive thing we look for as humans.

No matter what any organisation does, no matter how closely swimming or rugby studies the issue, or how many commitments they make to inclusion, and without any real limit on trans men competing, it's still the same response - anyone that disagrees with trans activists are transphobes, terfs and nazis.

There's the bromide/tenet/end-of statement that Trans Women Are Women, and if you disagree with that, you're a terf nazi

But because of the research and science on male puberty and its effect on bodies, no one is making that argument here, the argument is now "this only affects two players, so what's the big deal?".
Which at least tacitly accepts that trans women are not women in this particular case.

When you cede this obvious common sense ground - that there are physical differences between men and women that effect sports performance - you are on the opposite side of what is patently obvious to science and most fair-minded observers.

But you also allow idiots and hate-mongers in to camp on the common sense ground.
Then the argument becomes, "well, all the nazis disagree with me, I must be right"
 

Deadmanposting

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Here's a Rohrshach test


Josh Hawley - known prick - asks some basic questions at a senate hearing on abortion. Most people might agree that abortion is a women's issue, but this lady wants to make another case.

She has the floor. She's an educator, she knows how to speak in public. This is her chance to make a cohesive argument about pregnant men.
I really wanted to hear her make the case for pregnant men in a way the public can understand. Go for it, sis. You have the floor and the mic.

Two questions in, and she's accusing him of being transphobic and objecting to the line of questioning.



you're either gonna see
A - a brave woman standing up to a hate monger, whose only agenda is well, hate. So fuck him. In internet parlance, she probably "destroyed" him.

B - a woman when asked "what is the core of this [abortion] right?" is to just go at the questioner that the questions endanger trans people and we therefore can't talk about it. When we're, you know, supposed to be debating it.




Point is, when you say that abortion can't be described as a women's issue. Which will prick most people's ears up - "wait, what? why?"
But then also can't defend the statement with any real follow up, you are ceding all the ground to pricks like Hawley.
And you lose the people in the middle that want to undertsand. The asshole looks like the common sense one, cos the lady can't back up her stuff.


Sorry for the long posts..



Love and peace
 

rettucs

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Rugby is a sport for cunts. No argument from me.
But the sex-based differences between men and women are most obvious in physical competition.
As this trans debate goes on, the sports issue will continue to get engagement because it's patently obvious to the wider public what the terms and stakes are. This is simply an easier thing to understand for most people, and fairness is an intuitive thing we look for as humans.

No matter what any organisation does, no matter how closely swimming or rugby studies the issue, or how many commitments they make to inclusion, and without any real limit on trans men competing, it's still the same response - anyone that disagrees with trans activists are transphobes, terfs and nazis.

There's the bromide/tenet/end-of statement that Trans Women Are Women, and if you disagree with that, you're a terf nazi

But because of the research and science on male puberty and its effect on bodies, no one is making that argument here, the argument is now "this only affects two players, so what's the big deal?".
Which at least tacitly accepts that trans women are not women in this particular case.

When you cede this obvious common sense ground - that there are physical differences between men and women that effect sports performance - you are on the opposite side of what is patently obvious to science and most fair-minded observers.

But you also allow idiots and hate-mongers in to camp on the common sense ground.
Then the argument becomes, "well, all the nazis disagree with me, I must be right"
If anyone wants to argue that allowing trans athletes compete in sport is unfair, I will happily listen to their argument and they may have good, coherent reasons for their belief (see Ross Tucker). I would not automatically assume them a terf/nazi.

However, the terfs/nazis are all over this issue and the platform they've been given by the IRFU (and others) is very damaging to the trans community, most of whom couldn't give a fiddlers about sport.

People being classed as terfs/nazis cos of reasons you outlined is a different topic of conversation. I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with the fact that an almost non-issue has been turned into something very damaging for trans folk.
 

Lili Marlene

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Weird situation that the entire Repeal the 8th campaign in Ireland was run with inclusive language (against some internal protest I know) and pretty much not a single person noticed.

I haven't done a meta-analysis on every document as to whether they said "pregnant women" or "pregnant people" in every scenario, and I suspect they chose their battles, but attacking that would have been a great way to sow division for the no side if this particular culture war had risen it's head in 2018.

Here's a few samples though from the time though:



https://headstuff.org/topical/feminism-inclusivity-repealing-the-8th/



So I suppose what I'm saying is, it's quite possible to say pregnant people and not accept the TERFs (a self-describing term coined by them btw) set the terms of debate.
 

nooleen

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it must infuriate those who get exercised (pun unintended) about trans athletes, that if they tried a similar argument about the recent success of irish athletes breaking irish records - that if they tried the 'well, *their* families clearly aren't originally from ballyhaunis' argument, they'd be jumped on from a height.
It must infuriate the family of the woman raped by Danny Foley, that if they tried a similar argument about *her* being from the local area, it wouldn't matter a fuck.
 

Deadmanposting

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If anyone wants to argue that allowing trans athletes compete in sport is unfair, I will happily listen to their argument and they may have good, coherent reasons for their belief (see Ross Tucker). I would not automatically assume them a terf/nazi.

However, the terfs/nazis are all over this issue and the platform they've been given by the IRFU (and others) is very damaging to the trans community, most of whom couldn't give a fiddlers about sport.

People being classed as terfs/nazis cos of reasons you outlined is a different topic of conversation. I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with the fact that an almost non-issue has been turned into something very damaging for trans folk.
Well, that’s exactly what I’m saying, kinda.
That when trans activists cede the scientific and reasonable ground – all the independent scientific studies used by IRFU and FINA, plus a commitment to inclusion - you let a bunch of idiots in to do what they do.

I honestly can’t imagine what it’s like to be trans and experiencing this time – to feel trapped in the wrong body and in a world where that’s often a difficult experience, probably daily.

But it is not a non-issue for Moninne Griffiths et al who are arguing the increasingly inarguable, and reasonable people are not going to stop pointing that out.

Idiots will always join in; we have infinite resources of angry idiots on both sides. There’s awful stuff being said about trans people, I have absolutely no doubt. There’s people threatening to dox and kill feminists. People are in fear of their jobs and their lives. It’s a hellscape on the extremes.



Standard Footnote Below
------------------------
Again, just to reiterate, most people here and in the population at large want long and happy lives full of meaning for as many people as possible.
Be who you are, wear what you want, call yourself whatever you feel like calling yourself, make a funny hat for wearing at a jaunty angle, swap fluids with whoever thinks you’re worthy of the consent.
But we have hard-won existing protections for women – for very very good reasons – and those protections can’t be cast aside without making solid arguments with broad agreement.
 

nooleen

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Why isn't men's sport being asked to accommodate transwomen, rather than women? Men's sports could make allowances to make more feminine men feel welcome. Why isn't this the topic?
 

rettucs

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That's what I'm saying.
Why not?
it doesn't really matter, does it? Sport is all a load of bollox at the end of the day.

The whole argument is supposedly about fairness yet those who do qualify to participate will probably fucking cheat anyway to get an advantage.

Sport is almost a non-issue in this context. It has been blown way out of proportion.
 

nooleen

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it doesn't really matter, does it? Sport is all a load of bollox at the end of the day.

The whole argument is supposedly about fairness yet those who do qualify to participate will probably fucking cheat anyway to get an advantage.

Sport is almost a non-issue in this context. It has been blown way out of proportion.
And yet it took great argument for women to be 'allowed' to have their own leagues in sport. It's cheap to you but it was fought for bitterly by women.
 

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