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ann post

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Flags can come to mean very different things to different people, and very different things than the people who designed them intended.

Of course

HOWEVER

isn't it the most neoliberal shit to rebrand and not own your past? If we do 100 years of good irelanding now, the flag could mean somthing else.

Flag 2.0 negates history - if the union jack was changed tomorrow would it be fair on a global scale to not, as the saying goes, own one's own shit?
 

JohnnyRaz

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Of course

HOWEVER

isn't it the most neoliberal shit to rebrand and not own your past? If we do 100 years of good irelanding now, the flag could mean somthing else.

Flag 2.0 negates history - if the union jack was changed tomorrow would it be fair on a global scale to not, as the saying goes, own one's own shit?
I don’t think the rebranding in this way is the sole prevail of neoliberalism.

The current Union Jack replaced an earlier flag, the french tricolour replaced the bourbon flag etc. It was about saying history starts now.

While I wouldn’t be among them - I guess those who would propose a new flag for Ireland would say they are looking to a better future rather than a troubled past. Not unlike the designers of the original Irish tricolor.
 

taubstumm

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I don’t think the rebranding in this way is the sole prevail of neoliberalism.

The current Union Jack replaced an earlier flag, the french tricolour replaced the bourbon flag etc. It was about saying history starts now.

While I wouldn’t be among them - I guess those who would propose a new flag for Ireland would say they are looking to a better future rather than a troubled past. Not unlike the designers of the original Irish tricolor.

speaking of the union jack...

when the brits were literally running a global drug cartel in the mid 19th-century by flooding china with opium, the chinese called the union jack the “rice-character flag” — because it superficially resembled the chinese character for the word rice (which I just looked up! it’s this: 米)

and as a related twist, the brits used the money from turning the whole of china into junkies by spending it on tea, in order to control trade in the indian ocean. but the idea that brits drink tea as a side-effect of being a ruthless global drug gang just sort of gets skipped over most of the time in the official histories, for some reason

anyway, I vote we all start referring to the more empire-minded sasanaigh as riceflaggers from now on
 

JohnnyRaz

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speaking of the union jack...

when the brits were literally running a global drug cartel in the mid 19th-century by flooding china with opium, the chinese called the union jack the “rice-character flag” — because it superficially resembled the chinese character for the word rice (which I just looked up! it’s this: 米)

and as a related twist, the brits used the money from turning the whole of china into junkies by spending it on tea, in order to control trade in the indian ocean. but the idea that brits drink tea as a side-effect of being a ruthless global drug gang just sort of gets skipped over most of the time in the official histories, for some reason

anyway, I vote we all start referring to the more empire-minded sasanaigh as riceflaggers from now on
Was the tea thing not a earlier side effect of east India company beginning to control bengal? I thought there was a link between the vast quantities of tea they suddenly had control of and the Boston tea party?

Yanks were all over opium trade later in 19c as well.
 

seanc

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In my early 20s I swore to stop discussing the north and abortion with people - even if I agreed with them it’d end in an argument.

A few years later I joined thumped!


Abort the North?

If you were a political campaign strategy PR person that'd be strong sloganeering. Dangerous stuff.
 

Deadmanposting

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How about we nick/co-opt/subvert the Ukrainian flag?
Green at the bottom, blue at the top? Fields and sky.
But a royal blue?
And our (the Republic) official colour is blue in anyways.
 

taubstumm

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Was the tea thing not a earlier side effect of east India company beginning to control bengal? I thought there was a link between the vast quantities of tea they suddenly had control of and the Boston tea party?

Yanks were all over opium trade later in 19c as well.

yep, that’s how it began — at least as far as I know (please thumped historians jump in!) — and then the whole thing became supercharged in the mid-19th century through a triangular trade pattern. opium came out of afghanistan, went to china. tea came out of china, went everywhere, but particularly britain. and men with guns came out of britain and headed to afghanistan. the whole thing spurred the technological innovations that led to the clipper class of ships, which would race each other from shanghai to london to be the first to get their tea to port. there was even a whole sub-market of betting on which clippers would get there first.
 

magicbastarder

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can you imagine the fucking hoo-ha if the decision *was* made to redesign the flag? it'd be worse than all the abortion referendums combined. and the damn thing would probably end up being an awful mish mash of every element to satisfy every pressure group.
 

flashback

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can you imagine the fucking hoo-ha if the decision *was* made to redesign the flag? it'd be worse than all the abortion referendums combined. and the damn thing would probably end up being an awful mish mash of every element to satisfy every pressure group.
If we all decided that our new flag would be a poorly scrawled cock and balls, with jizz spurting all over the shop, they'd have to put that up all over the US on National St Patties Day.

Worth it.
 

chris d

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DUP didn't do that bad then.

Natural pessimist here, but think we need another couple of elections where a Nationalist party comes on top before we get too excited. But still a historic election.

Had a couple of cans of Scraggy Bay, and on the phone so typing difficult. But here's an incoming take anyway.

With regards to the United Ireland question. Here is how i go about it from a very high level. Question, why does Northern Ireland exist? The answer to that, for me, means, there should be a United Ireland.

This post isnt going to solve / realise how to achieve that to the satisfaction of everyone on THE ISLAND OF IRELAND. Apart from a vote winning 51% in the north.

I would, however, like to think it would be realistic that the majority in "the south" would like to see it happen. Having a part of the country ruled by Westminster? Let's move past that.

Some stuff.

The Flag/Anthem question.
Im from a very soft nationalist background. Went to a mixed school. Like rugby well enough. When the idea of changing the flag was raised, i thought fair enough. Let's help welcome the northern unionists. But ive changed my tune over the years. The people with an issue with the Irish flag will not care what it is changed to. Give them an option to be involved in a new design and they'll be as petty as possible.

I could live with a new flag. Something green with a Presidential Harp. But when it comes down to it, i dont think we are aiming towards a "new country" We have Ireland, the north would become part of it.

Cultural Differences.
Let's face it, im from there, a lot of them are as mad as fuck. Big angry nordie heads. They have the bbc as the standard television channels, giving them 30 minutes of English centric news followed by 5 minutes of "in your area" stuff . Okay there is proper northern irish episode(?) , but the first thing reported is always Westminster. Marching season. I also buy a load of cheap Northern Monk and Brewdog in nordie tesco when i head up. The list goes on.

Unionism
Im not solving this topic. If we have a united ireland, there is no union. What do they do then? I think they need a long term realisation that if you live in Ireland, you are at least in some way Irish. And the tide is turning. A united Ireland is coming (probably) . What are they going to do? Maybe embrace their irishness, their northern irishness. Have some sense of themselves without being complete dicks and wrecking society. How do we get there? Not with the DUP anyway.

The NHS v The HSE
This gets thrown out as the ultimate sensible win not to mess about. But, as perviously mentioned, with a closer inspection maybe the NHS isn't all it is cracked up to be.

My old fella (73) was given a 2 & 1/2 year wait to get his cataracts done. He's gone private. Still waiting a few months mind.

I made the point that at least their GP visits are free, but he wrecked it saying they have been paying for it all all their lives with taxes and rates.

So neither are in perfect shape. And we are a small independent island nation, our nationwide administrating and health provision needs work. But we are doing it on our own at least.

Have I solved it all? Excellent.

Realistically, we are at least 50 years away? I haven't bothered getting into loyalist violence. Reparations from London(????) and whatever else. The violence would hopefully be managed by time and political leadership, but look where we are now with all the insincere waffle about the protocol from Donaldson and the like.

To recap, let's have a united ireland and all be sound? I remember as a young lad thinking politics down here must be so easy. No usins v themuns.

The only goal being the greater good for your fellow irish man/woman. Whoops.
 

chris d

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Another thought after re-reading my post. After looking at the election results. The DUP didn't get wiped out, we aren't ready for a border poll. Talking about it does seem a good step.
 

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