NICE referendum ... (1 Viewer)

Originally posted by pete

Oh yeah - the old "vote yes for irish neutrality" line - ehh wouldn't any change to Irish neutrality require another referendum anyway????

I think what they're getting at is that a Yes vote would ensure is that our 'neutrality' within the EU would be reinforced, no change to the natiional standpoint but to the EU standpoint.
 
There has been no alternative drawn up. It's fairly clear that the Nice treaty was a rush job. The French government wanted to achieve something significant during their presidency, and when you consider that the Treaty was drawn up in the closing days of December, then it's clear that the people were under pressure to put together something.

The Irish will be seen as "ungrateful", but there is a large distrust of the EU right across Europe. The No camp in Ireland is not alone within Europe. Indeed, if this referendum was in Austria, Denmark or Holland it'd be very likely that it wouldn't be passed. There is also considerable oppostion to it in countries such as France and Britain.

I think people in Europe don't actually want to be in a super-state. They want to co-operate in a number of different areas, but don't like the idea of losing their national identity.

Hopefully it will force the EU Commission to try to come up with an alternative.

Oh! And the Treaty of Amsterdam was the committment to enlargement.... so these countries will be admitted. They might be able to ride out the current economic downturn better than us, as they have more control over their economies.
 
Originally posted by Dan

1. I will lose money. How???

Probably when Ireland has to keep up with the other countries and buy state of the art weapons for the EU army. Thats just the handiest one that springs to mind

2. We will lose jobs. How????
See Above

{B}3. I will lose my freedom. What the fuck are you talking about?????? [/B]
There is quite a bit of freedom to be lost it seems. a lot of power is taken from the irish government and given to the EU itself in governing the country. Thats to be expected in such an agreement since thats what the EU is all about, centralisation. Dont think that by voting YES everything will stay as it is, cus it wont.

Also, I keep hearing this type of 'the EU has been around for x amount of years and has always been good ... etc etc etc" malarky from the YES camp

NICE intends to change how the EU operates so relating to the past, as a lot of YES campaigners are doing, bears no relation whatsoever to the future

I have seen the exact same statements as you have put forward, coming from the YES posters, and no-ones explained them to me yet.
 
Originally posted by billygannon


I'll re-iterate it again. The Irish government will have less vetoing power than the British, French, German, Spanish or Italian governments. Therefore, the people you vote into government will have less power than the people that, say, a Spanish person votes into government - because the Spanish can veto decisions in numerous areas that the Irish government can't.
That quite simply means that the person representing the Spanish person is more powerful than the person representing you - simply because you are Irish - their person has a veto, your person doesn't.

Why vote yes to that situation? You will have less say in a Europe that is extending it's powers.

I understand this and still stand by what I said.
 
Originally posted by Chocohead


Probably when Ireland has to keep up with the other countries and buy state of the art weapons for the EU army. Thats just the handiest one that springs to mind



:D :D :D :D

Thats hilarious, it really is!!!

We'll get a discount I'm sure since we make so much of the electronic components that go into those weapons.
 
but ... but .. i was being serious.....

It is a true fact that if the EU army comes in, Ireland will more than likely be instructed how to play its part in the upkeep of the army. for example, to vote yesh we're being told lots of guilt complex things like europe has been soo good, lets all be good europeans, and weird things like we're better off in europe (even though we're already there), so imagine what the government would throw at us to pay for their share of the weapons.

oh, one other reason why Im voting no .. i dont like how 'peacekeeping' has been changed to 'peacemaking'....
 
Originally posted by Dan


I understand this and still stand by what I said.

So you understand that if you vote Yes to Nice, you are allowing the representatives of a citizen of Spain, Italy, Germany, Britain and France to have more power than a representative of a citizen of a smaller country simply because of where they are from.
 
Originally posted by Dan


:D :D :D :D

Thats hilarious, it really is!!!

We'll get a discount I'm sure since we make so much of the electronic components that go into those weapons.

Funny because it's true x 2

As I understand it, a pre-requisite of taking part in the Rapid Reaction Force is that, for the sake of consistency, all member states have to use the same equipment. Although I think maybe it's a training requirement only and we'd be allowed to borrow the necessary "peacemaking" tools as needed.
 
One enjoyable thing about this referendum campaign, and the last one too, is the juxtaposition of Yes/No posters and their slogans. Before we had the classic "Vote Yes or you will lose power, money, jobs" right next to "Vote No or you will lose power, money, jobs" (like we want any of those things, eh?)

Yesterday I saw "Vote Yes for a strong economy" adjacent to "Vote No for a democratic Europe". Which is possibly quite honest, but can I not have both, please? If not, what is the point of eternally expanding & growing western culture/capitalism?

I wonder should we really be worried about Spaniards (say) having greater representation/power thatn Irish in a future Europe? Do the likes of Pee Flynn ever represent anyone other than themselves? If Irish politicians had more sway in Europe would we still have divorce and homosexuality criminalised?
 
Originally posted by Keeror

I wonder should we really be worried about Spaniards (say) having greater representation/power thatn Irish in a future Europe? Do the likes of Pee Flynn ever represent anyone other than themselves? If Irish politicians had more sway in Europe would we still have divorce and homosexuality criminalised?

This is the reason I am tempted to vote 'Yes'.
Only for the EU we would have practically no pro-environment legislation
 
i have to say the opposite. most people i know will be voting yes this time.

i've been reading up about this a lot, and i'm not so sure anymore. one question keeps springing up: if its so bad, why did every other member state involved agree?
plus: europe has been gearing up for a super state since the seventies, its not a new thing, right? so this feeling of saying no to creating a two tiered system has been in the pipeline for a long time... and saying no to this will not stop it from passing.
thoughts?
 
i've been reading up about this a lot, and i'm not so sure anymore. one question keeps springing up: if its so bad, why did every other member state involved agree?


Because none of them actually asked their people. Denmark said no.


plus: europe has been gearing up for a super state since the seventies, its not a new thing, right? so this feeling of saying no to creating a two tiered system has been in the pipeline for a long time... and saying no to this will not stop it from passing.
thoughts?


So basically, just go with the flow then, regardless of how baised the thing is? I didnt have the rights to complain in the 70's .. i do now though. The EU is changing completely with this, so theres no point in looking to the past the justify NICE.
 
c'mon choco, be more explanitory than that...? the government and all the political parties are standing behind it (except the greens, sinn fein, and the CSP). why?
i'd be inclined to go the way of the greens but i keep getting conflicting opinions from people whose opinions i trust, and my own opinion is getting more confused...
so they didn't ask their people? and here we are with most of our country not understanding the reasons for yes or no....
 
Originally posted by egg_


This is the reason I am tempted to vote 'Yes'.
Only for the EU we would have practically no pro-environment legislation

And voting No won't change that.
 
Originally posted by lorcanzo
i have to say the opposite. most people i know will be voting yes this time.

i've been reading up about this a lot, and i'm not so sure anymore. one question keeps springing up: if its so bad, why did every other member state involved agree?


Em.... Belgium hasn't signed up to it yet. And it is questionable that a treaty that is trying to orchestrate a state that could supercede current states is only up for a refendum in a small nation like ours

 
Originally posted by lorcanzo
and here we are with most of our country not understanding the reasons for yes or no....

I'm fairly convinced that the government are making sure that the whole thing is kept quiet, mass confusion ensues, confused voters will end up voting yes because of the larger amount of threatening YES posters, and they don't wanna feel left out of anything right? Right? God forbid we might take a stand on something. Seriously, we live in one of the most conservative leniant societies in Europe. Pah!


Then they'll complain in years to come when they lose alot of their rights.
 
Originally posted by lorcanzo
c'mon choco, be more explanitory than that...? the government and all the political parties are standing behind it (except the greens, sinn fein, and the CSP). why?
i'd be inclined to go the way of the greens but i keep getting conflicting opinions from people whose opinions i trust, and my own opinion is getting more confused...
so they didn't ask their people? and here we are with most of our country not understanding the reasons for yes or no....

I honestly cant be more explainitory than that. You have to look at the reasons the various and usually unrelated No campaigners are putting forward and give them fair thought. Theres a lot going on here, and whilst I too cant understand how political parties can back a yes vote (except maybe for political favours and greed, since most influencial politicians dont give a shit as the decision makers will never be poor), I know they arent putting forward valid reasons to vote YES. I find that quite disturbing.

I'll vote no this time, and every other time they decide to have a referendum about it until I get a clear and honest outline of how exactly this will effect ireland, and then, going by what I know so far, I'll probably still vote no since if they're honest, the government will back a no vote....

All i can say is only vote yes if yu perfectly understand the issues and agree with them. If you dont understand a lot of it (like me) then vote no. better safe than sorry. Things wont get worse by a NO vote .. though the EU is probably worried that if we do, then the other countries will demand referendum s and a chance to make their voices heard too.

that wouldnt be a bad thing in my book.
 

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