My child is doing my fucking head in (1 Viewer)

pete

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After a year of absolute hell EVERY. SINGLE. NIGHT., we did 2 nights of controlled crying and it solved the problem almost completely.

If it had taken any longer than that we would have caved, because I can honestly say it's one of the hardest things I've ever done.

edit: I'd also take issue with the La Leche statement that "There is no way of knowing if, when babies stop crying, they have fallen asleep or have simply gone into a "withdrawn" state where they have given up hope of being responded to" because there is a way of knowing - it's called an infrared video monitor and I highly recommend getting one.

Secondly, I doubt babies have the mental capacity to "give up hope" on anything, and framing their behaviour as such, or the the bellybelly claim that "They have learned not to bother calling for help with their discomfort, because no-one will come or comfort them anyway" is just manipulative "you're a terribly parent if you do this" nonsense.
 
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ann post

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Like i'm 39 but if any of you can teach me to go to bed and actually go to sleep and get up at 8 every day* there would be certainly be money, or exposure in it for you.
 

JohnnyRaz

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He wipes his arse with comforting. Will not stop crying unless he gets picked up. Maybe I have to be more ruthless but it's hard.
its really hard - but you'll get there.
basically the way to look at sleep training is that it will overall
After a year of absolute hell EVERY. SINGLE. NIGHT., we did 2 nights of controlled crying and it solved the problem almost completely.

If it had taken any longer than that we would have caved, because I can honestly say it's one of the hardest things I've ever done.

edit: I'd also take issue with the La Leche statement that "There is no way of knowing if, when babies stop crying, they have fallen asleep or have simply gone into a "withdrawn" state where they have given up hope of being responded to" because there is a way of knowing - it's called an infrared video monitor and I highly recommend getting one.

Secondly, I doubt babies have the mental capacity to "give up hope" on anything, and framing their behaviour as such, or the the bellybelly claim that "They have learned not to bother calling for help with their discomfort, because no-one will come or comfort them anyway" is just manipulative "you're a terribly parent if you do this" nonsense.
also - the chronic infant stress studies leading to emotional and developmental problems typically look at extreme situations.

15mins of crying in the context of an otherwise loving, stimulating and physically attentive environment is a different matter.

i would take issue with some of the 'at X months your baby should be sleeping Xhrs' stuff - everyone is different in this regard, not least of all as baby's developmental stage can vary from baby to baby.
 

egg_

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A former boss's daughter slept through the night from 10 weeks old. My only consolation at the time (with 2 poor sleepers in my house) was telling myself she'd surely grow up to be a dull adult
 

egg_

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15mins of crying in the context of an otherwise loving, stimulating and physically attentive environment is a different matter.
Some book I read about native Americans claimed they deliberately never responded to their kids' crying from birth onwards, because it meant the kids quickly learned to communicate their needs in other ways that were less likely to attract the attention of predators or enemies. Dunno how true it was though
 

Squiggle

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After a year of absolute hell EVERY. SINGLE. NIGHT., we did 2 nights of controlled crying and it solved the problem almost completely.
I'm not judging what you did. If it worked for you after only 2 nights then great.

But your baby was a toddler, with some understanding of language, not a younger baby who doesn't understand what is going on.

edit: I'd also take issue with the La Leche statement that "There is no way of knowing if, when babies stop crying, they have fallen asleep or have simply gone into a "withdrawn" state where they have given up hope of being responded to" because there is a way of knowing - it's called an infrared video monitor and I highly recommend getting one.

Secondly, I doubt babies have the mental capacity to "give up hope" on anything, and framing their behaviour as such, or the the bellybelly claim that "They have learned not to bother calling for help with their discomfort, because no-one will come or comfort them anyway" is just manipulative "you're a terribly parent if you do this" nonsense.
Not trying to make you, or anyone else, feel like a terrible parent, we all have to make our choices, but they should be informed ones.

Babies do have the mental capacity to give up hope. I worked for a children's charity and we saw them in their thousands. Rows and rows of silent babies in cribs in orphanages. They're not silent because they're happy, they just know nobody is going to respond to them.

Non-responsive parenting (letting baby cry, lack of cuddling and physical contact... even "blank face") has been linked with causing long term elevation in baseline cortisol levels in a large number of studies.

There is evidence that using "extinction crying" techniques, like controlled crying, cry it out etc. may cause long term elevation in baseline cortisol levels, there is no evidence that it doesn't cause harm and in the majority of studies there was very little change in sleep habits between the control group and the "sleep trained" group, in short and long term.

Lots of stress in the short term, for parent and baby, for maybe a short term gain and possibly long term harm... doesn't seem worth it to me. They're only little for a short time.

Your two nights probably didn't do any harm, but people are regularly advised to use these techniques on young babies, and for weeks on end. My husband was left to cry 12 hours a night from birth, until he stopped crying, and didn't cry again. He has an abnormally high baseline cortisol level... which means that even slightly stressful events can push his cortisol levels up where a normal person's would be only after a major trauma.

I just go to bed earlier than I did before kids to make it easier to get up for work in the morning.
 

Squiggle

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Some book I read about native Americans claimed they deliberately never responded to their kids' crying from birth onwards, because it meant the kids quickly learned to communicate their needs in other ways that were less likely to attract the attention of predators or enemies. Dunno how true it was though
They did the opposite, keeping babies close, in arms or strapped on in a carrier, to a parent, usually the mother, constantly for the first year or more of life, and babies were breastfed for at least two years.
 

Burgerbarbaby

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They did the opposite, keeping babies close, in arms or strapped on in a carrier, to a parent, usually the mother, constantly for the first year or more of life, and babies were breastfed for at least two years.
These are amazing and heartening posts Squiggle! Top-notch Thumped-ing!
 

dudley

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The best advice we ever got was just sleep when the baby is asleep, no matter if its 3PM or 3AM. Changed everything, and meant we stopped watching shite on the telly, thus feeling more smug.

But seriously, grab those naps ALL THE TIME you can
 

pete

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My post up above wasn't meant to come off quite so aggressive, ha. I just think we need to differentiate between gradually letting them know over a couple of nights that it's going to be ok if they're not picked up immediately, and completely ignoring the little shits while they scream their heads off until they stop.
 

pete

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The best advice we ever got was just sleep when the baby is asleep, no matter if its 3PM or 3AM. Changed everything, and meant we stopped watching shite on the telly, thus feeling more smug.

But seriously, grab those naps ALL THE TIME you can
my boss wasn't quite so understanding
 

egg_

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They did the opposite, keeping babies close, in arms or strapped on in a carrier, to a parent, usually the mother, constantly for the first year or more of life, and babies were breastfed for at least two years.
I'm not sure that's "the opposite". If a child is in constant physical contact with you perhaps he/she doesn't need to cry so much?
 

Squiggle

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I'm not sure that's "the opposite". If a child is in constant physical contact with you perhaps he/she doesn't need to cry so much?
Opposite to not responding... yes, babies and small children that are physically kept close to parents tend to cry less, and only to cry when there is a genuine problem (pain or discomfort or hunger usually as they sleep as needed).
 

egg_

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Actually now I think about it again I guess you could call it "the opposite", but I didn't mean that they didn't attend to their kids, rather that the kids were (apparently successfully) discouraged from making noise.

I guess from a (modern) parent's perspective what matters is not the noise, but being woken up when you really need to sleep
 

chris d

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so you pricks are saying it's going to get worse! I can't complain too much, they stopped night feeds at around 12 weeks. they were killing me. we have had good nights and bad since then, but recently had about 2 or 3 weeks of brilliant sleeping. from 8pm to 6am give or take. Last week they have gone back to waking at 3 or 4 for an hour or two. Mostly to chat or be stood up. Some nights to scream with teething. They are going through another mental development so I think it's just time for this one.

sorry to hear about the chicken pox @Cornu Ammonis buummmm..mer.
 

Squiggle

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My post up above wasn't meant to come off quite so aggressive, ha. I just think we need to differentiate between gradually letting them know over a couple of nights that it's going to be ok if they're not picked up immediately, and completely ignoring the little shits while they scream their heads off until they stop.
Hey, no offence taken. You're right, there is a difference, and there is a difference between what is appropriate at different ages. Trying to sleep train a baby in the middle of a development leap, for example, will only cause stress for everyone, while starting to train a baby near the end of one (when they end babies usually have a different night time sleep pattern with longer periods of sleep between wakings than before the leap) might make it look like the training produced spectacular results.

The major issue I have with sleep training is with the self titled experts, who have zero parenting experience in the majority of cases, while also having no qualifications worth speaking of and have invented a job title that enables them to make a fortune exploiting the insecurities and exhaustion of new parents. And they encourage parents to ignore every good instinct they have.
 

snakybus

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My eldest daughter didn't sleep for years. 5 - 6 AM for the first couple of years, 7 AM then for a few more years. I think by around aged 10 she started sleeping till a normal time.

Now she's a teenager and guess what? I have to STAY UP to go collect her from late night babysitting/parties/whatever. aaaaargh

I have no advice for you. You have to suffer like the rest of us.
 

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