Leo Varadkar (1 Viewer)

Referendums are undemocratic.
We have a representative democracy not a direct one.
The people voted for this coalition and now they have to live with it.
You can't put every decision before the people, it would be bonkers.

If it's a constitutional issue, let someone challenge it in the courts.

It'd be Switzerland, is what it would be.
 
It was the electorate that wanted income tax reductions. It was the electorate that wanted no stamp duty for first-time buyers, tax relief on investment property. Many of us were complicit in the mania, we also ignored warnings from the boffins, head in the sand type shit.

unfortunately this is very true. I recall 2 elections ago that Fianna Fail weren't showing well in early polls. The consensus swung back in their favour nearing the election, purely because of the reasons maims bond outlined. People voted with their greedy little pockets.
 
Didn't they increase excise duty on fuel in the budget too? VAT is applied right at the end AFAIK (certainly when we import stuff in work we pay VAT on the import duty) so you're actually paying more money to the government in 2 ways, the increase in the excise and the increase on VAT on the increase to the excise. I would be shocked if that's having a negative impact on the tax take elsewhere.

another point that Leo is missing is that the tax take is likely remaining steady purely because people are buying less fuel. Gone are the sunday drives, the saturday nights out for a meal, and the odd other social call or wherever else people may drive during the week. Now its fill the car to get me to work and back for the week and I'll walk everywhere else.

Whereas if the price of fuel was lower people would buy more, the tax take would be the same (ref: Leo Varadkar), but because people would have more other disposable income, they' be out buying nice things for themselves, thereby boosting our flagging economy.
 
See,I think thats what Varadker was getting at with his 'undemocratic' talk,I reckon that any referendum put in front of us now will be shot down merely so we can give the government a poke in the eye,we wouldn't be voting on the referendum so much as on the austerity deal that's been foisted upon us.
Still,it was an unfortunate turn of phrase for Leo to use.

that would no doubt happen, but its the government that have created the situation and so can't really use it as an excuse.

I take the point about us never getting anything done if everything were put to a referendum. Where do you draw the line though? You could argue that elections would be undemocratic people because people will just want to punish the government.

I have a suggestion. How about the government start doing things that make people happy that they're serving our best interests, throw us the odd fucking bone, and intersperse at least a little happy shit with all the doom and gloom.
 
When asked if the fiscal compact agreed in Brussels last month had been designed in such a way that it would not need a referendum in Ireland, Mr Link replied: “Exactly”.

The German minister’s comments appear to contradict the Taoiseach’s denial in the Dáil this month of a report in this newspaper that parts of the pact were explicitly drafted to give the Government a chance to avoid a referendum.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0223/1224312244512.html
 
Referendums are undemocratic.
We have a representative democracy not a direct one.
The people voted for this coalition and now they have to live with it.
You can't put every decision before the people, it would be bonkers.

If it's a constitutional issue, let someone challenge it in the courts.

I've been up thinking about this all night. It's always been the case that you vote for the government but got to have a say on constitutional issues, presumably because they are considered to be of more fundamental importantance than regular day-to-day issues, so its not like we have a vote on every little thing that comes up. We vote for governments on the basis that we will actually be able to have a further say on things in particular situations. Its well sneaky to try and bypass that i reckon. Anyway, you have your vote on election day, vote for a party that says this or that, then they join a coalition and they dont even have to pretend to do what they said they would because they're in a coalition and its all about compromise.

and another thing. I don't know anyone who voted for FF out of pure selfishness or because they admired crooks or whatever. Im sure there are such people but not too many i'd say. I do know people who voted for them in 2002 and 2007 because the country seemed to be prospering and, not being economists, they figured that ff seemed to be doing a good job and let them at it. I doubt Michael Lowry topped the polls because he was corrupt. its not completely senseless to vote for someone whos going to look after your local interests and locally he's probably sound enough and people see the good in him and forgive the bad in accordance with our constitutionally endorsed christian principles. less self-loathing lads and more self-love. Mmmm.
 
I have a suggestion. How about the government start doing things that make people happy that they're serving our best interests, throw us the odd fucking bone, and intersperse at least a little happy shit with all the doom and gloom.

Cause we'd never be happy!! A list of what would make the Irish electorate happy would me the most contradictory thing you could ever see....

  • Give everyone a medical card
  • Reduce the salaries and pensions of public servants
  • Build better roads
  • Reduce MY income tax
  • Give my child a SNA in school
  • Equality for all
  • Jail all travellers
  • Collect my rubbish for free
  • Make half the council workers redundant
  • Burn the bondholders
  • Keep my deposits safe
etc etc
 
so its not like we have a vote on every little thing that comes up.

agreed, but the rules are well-defined in this regard. If it requires a change to the constitution then a referendum is required. If not, then none needed.

and another thing. I don't know anyone who voted for FF out of pure selfishness or because they admired crooks or whatever. Im sure there are such people but not too many i'd say.

I think this commented was aimed mostly at the good folk of Tipperary and of Kerry where the parish pump politics are in full flow.
 
and another thing. I don't know anyone who voted for FF out of pure selfishness or because they admired crooks or whatever. Im sure there are such people but not too many i'd say. I do know people who voted for them in 2002 and 2007 because the country seemed to be prospering and, not being economists, they figured that ff seemed to be doing a good job and let them at it. I doubt Michael Lowry topped the polls because he was corrupt. its not completely senseless to vote for someone whos going to look after your local interests and locally he's probably sound enough and people see the good in him and forgive the bad in accordance with our constitutionally endorsed christian principles.

Putting your own local issues ahead of the greater good is pretty much the definition of selfishness. The electorate want local fixers rather than vote for structural or systematic change.
 
Putting your own local issues ahead of the greater good is pretty much the definition of selfishness. The electorate want local fixers rather than vote for structural or systematic change.

Lowry and Healy Rae are the epitome of that particular trait as well as the last FF government.
 
and another thing. I don't know anyone who voted for FF out of pure selfishness or because they admired crooks or whatever. Im sure there are such people but not too many i'd say.

Just by way of anecdote, someone I was in college with who, I'd up to that point thought had her head screwed on pretty well and who, as far as I could figure was making pretty good money in her job (she'd want to considerigng the work she was putting in and the nature of it) spent much of the run up to the 2007 election pushing for people that we knew to vote for FF. Her reason for the sudden interest in politics, she wanted to buy a house in the coming 12 months.
 
A friend of mine summarised this whole political philosophy conundrum in one simple phrase:

"Socialism assumes everyone is sound, capitalism assumes everyone's a prick".

So...some kind of liberal social democracy as what we're stuck with.
 
we're running a deficit of about €17bn. take all the cuts we've had, and add maybe €10bn onto that (not sure how much interest payment savings would be worth) for a few years. austerity is not the word.
 
We have every right to vote on this, in any case ,don't forget we voted against two European treaties already so that can't be really used as an excuse. Actually it is important that we vote on this preferably with a NO vote because the treaty only consolidates and centralises more power to the ECB.

Im not saying we don't have a right to vote on it just that we wouldn't be voting on the issue rather we'd be voting on the governments performance.
 
Im not saying we don't have a right to vote on it just that we wouldn't be voting on the issue rather we'd be voting on the governments performance.

That contradicts Lisbon 1 when FF were bending over backwards with free for alls, yet we still voted against it. I think the Irish have become more politically savvy with regards to Europe, if we voted against it, it would be because we now know that Europe does not have the best interests of this small nation at heart. Besides , who is to say that we would vote against it - the establishment is pretty adept at scaring the shite out of the Irish people in securing the vote they want. I can see where you are coming from, though I know that my vote wouldn't be inspired because of FG/Labs performance.
 

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