Ireland v Serbia (1 Viewer)

I didn't get to see this, just saw text updates.. So Long still needs 4 or 5 good chances to score one, and Ward is still a liability? When was the last time we had a solid left back, maybe back when it was Finnan/O'Shea.. It sounded like we were good in the first half at least. I hope O'Neill sticks with developing the 4-5-1 option in spite of the setbacks. Scotland won in Poland today, they might be the real threat for 2nd place in the group. Our U21 side got beaten at home by Montenegro to knock them out of qualifying contention and round out a day of bad results.
 
Maybe this is simplistic thinking but.. Seeing as Long evidently works best with a strike partner, and we have one R.Keane on standby, but we don't want to ditch the 5 in midfield, how about 3-5-2, something like this:
Code:
             Forde
  O'Shea Clark/Dunne Wilson
Coleman            McGeady/McClean
     McCarthy     Whelan
          Hoolahan/Reid
         Long    Keane
 
I didn't get to see this, just saw text updates.. So Long still needs 4 or 5 good chances to score one, and Ward is still a liability? When was the last time we had a solid left back, maybe back when it was Finnan/O'Shea.. It sounded like we were good in the first half at least. I hope O'Neill sticks with developing the 4-5-1 option in spite of the setbacks. Scotland won in Poland today, they might be the real threat for 2nd place in the group. Our U21 side got beaten at home by Montenegro to knock them out of qualifying contention and round out a day of bad results.

Everyone panicked on the ball after we went 1 up. Even Coleman was guilty. McCarthy Hoolihan and Whelan did quite well and seemed assured at times but they were bypassed by hoofs out of defence way too often. McClean was a threat but never really looked totally confident, McGeady was anonymous and Long, yeah his finishing was pretty dire, anything more than one touch and he over thinks it. Over all it was good for 20 minutes then gradually the quality in their side showed while we got nervous and then desperate.

Green shoots perhaps but not enough to warrant any kind of genuine optimism yet.
Maybe this is simplistic thinking but.. Seeing as Long evidently works best with a strike partner, and we have one R.Keane on standby, but we don't want to ditch the 5 in midfield, how about 3-5-2, something like this:
Code:
             Forde
  O'Shea Clark/Dunne Wilson
Coleman            McGeady/McClean
     McCarthy     Whelan
          Hoolahan/Reid
         Long    Keane

For me, you can only play 3 at the back if all 3 of your centre halves have pace. When Italy out classed Spain in the first match at 2012 Euros they even had Cheilini, Bonnucci and De Rossi back there and they're no slouches have big engines and 2 of them play that system at club level. Everton did it last season with Distin, Jagielka and Stones (I think) none of which are short for pace. Unfortunately none of what we have could cover the ground well enough. Which is a pity because I reckon McClean could be groomed as a wing back and Coleman already is one really.
 
For me, you can only play 3 at the back if all 3 of your centre halves have pace. When Italy out classed Spain in the first match at 2012 Euros they even had Cheilini, Bonnucci and De Rossi back there and they're no slouches have big engines and 2 of them play that system at club level. Everton did it last season with Distin, Jagielka and Stones (I think) none of which are short for pace. Unfortunately none of what we have could cover the ground well enough. Which is a pity because I reckon McClean could be groomed as a wing back and Coleman already is one really.

True, Dunne and O'Shea might as well have zimmer frames at this stage.. Clark and Wilson a bit more mobile but not exactly rock steady, I think we'll still be depending on at least one of the older lads to run things at the back for this campaign. I thought that about McClean too, McGeady has also impressed me when he's had to put in a defensive shift (e.g. away vs Russia) which is partially why I thought the idea might work.

Just watched the highlights of the game there, it looks like Coleman gets walloped in the face in the lead-up to the first Serbian goal, maybe a bit unlucky the foul wasn't called. He had a shocker for the 2nd though..
 
True, Dunne and O'Shea might as well have zimmer frames at this stage.. Clark and Wilson a bit more mobile but not exactly rock steady, I think we'll still be depending on at least one of the older lads to run things at the back for this campaign. I thought that about McClean too, McGeady has also impressed me when he's had to put in a defensive shift (e.g. away vs Russia) which is partially why I thought the idea might work.

Just watched the highlights of the game there, it looks like Coleman gets walloped in the face in the lead-up to the first Serbian goal, maybe a bit unlucky the foul wasn't called. He had a shocker for the 2nd though..
McClean got an elbow in the nose, he was bleeding after it. Coleman stepped up too late to play offside and didn't track Kolorov's ( I think) run properly. He was awful for the second goal but earlier when I mentioned google rewarding failure it's failures like that which have t be applauded (In a way, bear with me)

Coleman, Whelan, McCarthy and Hoolihan all took responsibility on the ball in their own half and if you want to play actual football you have to be willing to take a risk. Whelan in the first half surprised me time and again with how calm he was on the ball Hughes must take a big slice of credit there. Ward, Wilson and Keogh all hoofed it in panic when a striker got within 10 yards of them which is effective in the short term, i.e they can't score from their own half. In the long term it gifts the ball back to them and in the modern game that means they can "defend" well by keeping hold of the ball (Thanks Barca) and we have no platform t build on. I know this is remeidial stuff, but for the "hoof it" brigade they may have to deal with a few mistakes like Coleman's last night for the greater good. We need modern centre halves, Jagielka or Terry types lads who get 60-70 touches a game and pass it with 80%+ accuracy. Ironically probably the only player in our back four who got close to that kind of contribution last night was Seamus Coleman.

First half we did well but they were just better than us, simple as that.
 
If our centre halves and keeper are rubbish on the ball and are just going to launch it, is there nothing to be said for the old tactic of "putting 'em under pressure"? Long/Walters with the knockdown to a scampering, swarming Coleman/McGeady et al who lay it off to Hoolahan, who lashes it home or, if further out, plays a cross back to one of the strikers for a simple nod in past the bobble-hatted eastern European goalkeeper...?
 
If our centre halves and keeper are rubbish on the ball and are just going to launch it, is there nothing to be said for the old tactic of "putting 'em under pressure"? Long/Walters with the knockdown to a scampering, swarming Coleman/McGeady et al who lay it off to Hoolahan, who lashes it home or, if further out, plays a cross back to one of the strikers for a simple nod in past the bobble-hatted eastern European goalkeeper...?
Afraid not. No one plays the game that way, apart from a blip between 1988-1994 no one ever played that way successfully. The game has changed 2 up front means you're light in midfield, modern centre halves are too quick to be caught out by long punts up field. We're playing against lads that look like this

David_Luiz_01_Chelsea_vs_AS-Roma_10AUG2013.jpg


We used to be playing against lads that looked like this

o_f_c_barcelona_ronald_koeman-2320859.jpg


That's the big difference.

Secondly in the old days teams weren't afraid to give the ball away but now teams can hold it for 70%+ of the game. That's a massive difference between 1990 and now. Teams then would try to stretch the game by adventurous passes and long dribbles, losing the ball was par for the course. Now ball retention is everything. Get 1-0 up and pass it square for an hour rather than the old Italian tactic of get 1-0 up play it around the back invite the opposition on to you and if needs be, have absolute faith in your centre halves ability to pick out a striker with a 70 yard ball which lands right on his toe. Remember Dennis Bergkamps last minute winner against Argentina ? when was the last time you saw that kind of goal by anyone at an international tournament ?

There are many ways of playing football, the kick it long and scrap method is typically employed by sides who want to finish mid-table and avoid relegation. It's effective, but only because it is primarily used to attain parity. You can stay up by reaching 38-40 points. Firstly beat the teams below you, who will probably play the same type of thing or are fundamentally flawed in their execution of the basics such as defending set pieces or balls into the box. Secondly draw with as many of the teams above you by keeping them pegged back and not letting them play. And it works. the teams who are inferior and adapt quickest to that style usually stay up, whereas teams like Wigan try to play and go down.

The problem with it at international level is that parity isn't the aim. You can't just draw games and even sneak a 1-0 here and there and qualify. The other factor is that you won't beat better sides that way and if you can't beat higher ranked sides you slip to 80th or whatever and have to play 3 better sides in qualifying.

We need play on the break, pass it better, get some pace in midfield and when we have it if we're going to play it long we have to take responsibility at the back pass it be comfortable on the ball, invite teams on to us to create space in behind. What we're doing now is just handing the ball back to whoever we play against. Even Armenia had us sussed after 10 minutes. We aren't technically as good as our opposition and in a way this group for the euros suits us because we can scrap, but how we scrap has to be more sophisticated.
 
If our centre halves and keeper are rubbish on the ball and are just going to launch it, is there nothing to be said for the old tactic of "putting 'em under pressure"? Long/Walters with the knockdown to a scampering, swarming Coleman/McGeady et al who lay it off to Hoolahan, who lashes it home or, if further out, plays a cross back to one of the strikers for a simple nod in past the bobble-hatted eastern European goalkeeper...?
Afraid not. No one plays the game that way, apart from a blip between 1988-1994 no one ever played that way successfully. The game has changed 2 up front means you're light in midfield, modern centre halves are too quick to be caught out by long punts up field. We're playing against lads that look like this

David_Luiz_01_Chelsea_vs_AS-Roma_10AUG2013.jpg


We used to be playing against lads that looked like this

o_f_c_barcelona_ronald_koeman-2320859.jpg


That's the big difference.

Secondly in the old days teams weren't afraid to give the ball away but now teams can hold it for 70%+ of the game. That's a massive difference between 1990 and now. Teams then would try to stretch the game by adventurous passes and long dribbles, losing the ball was par for the course. Now ball retention is everything. Get 1-0 up and pass it square for an hour rather than the old Italian tactic of get 1-0 up play it around the back invite the opposition on to you and if needs be, have absolute faith in your centre halves ability to pick out a striker with a 70 yard ball which lands right on his toe. Remember Dennis Bergkamps last minute winner against Argentina ? when was the last time you saw that kind of goal by anyone at an international tournament ?

There are many ways of playing football, the kick it long and scrap method is typically employed by sides who want to finish mid-table and avoid relegation. It's effective, but only because it is primarily used to attain parity. You can stay up by reaching 38-40 points. Firstly beat the teams below you, who will probably play the same type of thing or are fundamentally flawed in their execution of the basics such as defending set pieces or balls into the box. Secondly draw with as many of the teams above you by keeping them pegged back and not letting them play. And it works. the teams who are inferior and adapt quickest to that style usually stay up, whereas teams like Wigan try to play and go down.

The problem with it at international level is that parity isn't the aim. You can't just draw games and even sneak a 1-0 here and there and qualify. The other factor is that you won't beat better sides that way and if you can't beat higher ranked sides you slip to 80th or whatever and have to play 3 better sides in qualifying.

We need play on the break, pass it better, get some pace in midfield and when we have it if we're going to play it long we have to take responsibility at the back pass it be comfortable on the ball, invite teams on to us to create space in behind. What we're doing now is just handing the ball back to whoever we play against. Even Armenia had us sussed after 10 minutes. We aren't technically as good as our opposition and in a way this group for the euros suits us because we can scrap, but how we scrap has to be more sophisticated.
 
You just contradicted you. Are you going to let you get away with that?
No I didn't, I said no one basic plays 4-4-2 kick and rush which Cinnamonboy described here
If our centre halves and keeper are rubbish on the ball and are just going to launch it, is there nothing to be said for the old tactic of "putting 'em under pressure"? Long/Walters with the knockdown to a scampering, swarming Coleman/McGeady et al who lay it off to Hoolahan, who lashes it home or, if further out, plays a cross back to one of the strikers for a simple nod in past the bobble-hatted eastern European goalkeeper...?


We need play on the break, pass it better, get some pace in midfield and when we have it if we're going to play it long we have to take responsibility at the back pass it be comfortable on the ball, invite teams on to us to create space in behind. What we're doing now is just handing the ball back to whoever we play against. Even Armenia had us sussed after 10 minutes. We aren't technically as good as our opposition and in a way this group for the euros suits us because we can scrap, but how we scrap has to be more sophisticated.

and Moyes plays the more advanced 4-5-1 hit on the break version which I described there^^^^

Haven't bothered to read the actual posts again huh ?

This forum is going to the dogs.
 

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