Hail, Caesar! - for whiter than white whites (1 Viewer)

[7 - No tomorrow]

I'll probably go watch that just to see the 5 seconds or so that Clancy Brown is in the film

Careful now

The Coen Brothers' New Movie Hail Caesar! Looks Very Funny, and Very White
Well, if you get past the whole thing about it not appearing to star any people of color.

 

[pete]

the comments

oh god the comments

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

the comments

oh god the comments

It's just such a giveaway

"Look at how white this is!" as if white people were an offence in and of themselves. Dude is out hunting for this stuff so much that he doesn't know a non-problem when he sees one.

There's no cultural appropriation in it, no whitewashing of history or casting a white person in a POC's role.
They can't point to anything particularly wrong but are essentially saying there is something quite wrong going on overall in having a period movie cast all white.
Is the same criticism leveled at Downton Abbey?
I'm presuming that's fictional also.
If there's a problem with casting these dramas this way, I'd love to know it.

 

[pete]

It's just such a giveaway

"Look at how white this is!" as if white people were an offence in and of themselves. Dude is out hunting for this stuff so much that he doesn't know a non-problem when he sees one.

There's no cultural appropriation in it, no whitewashing of history or casting a white person in a POC's role.
They can't point to anything particularly wrong but are essentially saying there is something quite wrong going on overall in having a period movie cast all white.
Is the same criticism leveled at Downton Abbey?
I'm presuming that's fictional also.
If there's a problem with casting these dramas this way, I'd love to know it.

DON'T BE SIMPLE

because calling someone "simple" is in no way offensive to people with intellectual disabilities

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

I get the thing with the Moses movie. Casting black characters with white dudes. That's lazy and problematic.

This though, just seems like a false positive.

 

[Cormcolash]

Stupid fucking bollocks from idiots, as usual.

Their argument is basically that you're not allowed to make films unless you include POC actors. Fucking stupid. Let's just completely disregard the context of any historical film, in favour of what we want because that's how we feel now. Fucking idiots.

 

[Cormcolash]

It's just such a giveaway

"Look at how white this is!" as if white people were an offence in and of themselves. Dude is out hunting for this stuff so much that he doesn't know a non-problem when he sees one.

There's no cultural appropriation in it, no whitewashing of history or casting a white person in a POC's role.
They can't point to anything particularly wrong but are essentially saying there is something quite wrong going on overall in having a period movie cast all white.
Is the same criticism leveled at Downton Abbey?
I'm presuming that's fictional also.
If there's a problem with casting these dramas this way, I'd love to know it.

OF COURSE THERE'S A PROBLEM, I WANT THINGS TO BE MY WAY AND YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME!!

 

[David Kronenbourg]

Careful now

The Coen Brothers' New Movie Hail Caesar! Looks Very Funny, and Very White
Well, if you get past the whole thing about it not appearing to star any people of color.

GTFO!

 

[Lili Marlene]

It's just such a giveaway

"Look at how white this is!" as if white people were an offence in and of themselves. Dude is out hunting for this stuff so much that he doesn't know a non-problem when he sees one.

There's no cultural appropriation in it, no whitewashing of history or casting a white person in a POC's role.
They can't point to anything particularly wrong but are essentially saying there is something quite wrong going on overall in having a period movie cast all white.
Is the same criticism leveled at Downton Abbey?
I'm presuming that's fictional also.

Yes, yes it is.

But I agree.

If there's a problem with casting these dramas this way, I'd love
to know it.

I think the major problem is that they exist. David Oyelowo who played Martin Luther King in Selma said one of the problems with being a black actor in UK cinema is the lack of work due to the huge number of "period dramas" always being made where there are no black faces AT ALL.

Cos, you know, empire and slavery.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

I think the major problem is that they exist. David Oyelowo who played Martin Luther King in Selma said one of the problems with being a black actor in UK cinema is the lack of work due to the huge number of "period dramas" always being made where there are no black faces AT ALL.

Cos, you know, empire and slavery.

Is that not another bind though?
Only showing POCs as slaves or servants?

How do you maintain historicity while including non-white people?

Or if there are essentially no black people in Jane Austen, do you just accept it as part of the cultural legacy of the time? Or is it still a problem?

Btw, fair play to Shakespeare getting Othello in there. Streets ahead, that lad.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Is that not another bind though?
Only showing POCs as slaves or servants?

How do you maintain historicity while including non-white people?

Or if there are essentially no black people in Jane Austen, do you just accept it as part of the cultural legacy of the time? Or is it still a problem?

a lot of questions there 7, a lot of questions....

Most of the things we're talking about are buried within Jane Austen if you care to look for them (full disclosure: i'm poorly read in Austen and going on what people tell me), but we'd rather just tell the nice pleasant story about the rich, white people. These stories are even more whitewashed when they're made now than they even were at the (openly racist) time.

Speaking specifically about this film, I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to suspect that people of colour existed in 1950's Hollywood if you go looking. And yeah, if we want to say we're not racists in 2015 then we can't take the stereotypes from back then, accept them face-value and perpetuate them wholesale.

More generally, you could talk about ANY of the other POC who existed in the world at that time for example. There were a lot more of them than there were rich white people, that's a lot more stories if we were bothered to tell them. Unless we are saying as culture that we value the stories of the elite a lot more than the stories of everyone else, which lets be honest, we generally still do.

Btw, fair play to Shakespeare getting Othello in there. Streets ahead, that lad.

sure this is it. Othello and Caliban, having the craic.

 

[Lili Marlene]

It still looks like a good film though : (

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

But these aren't the stories we'd rather tell, they're the stories almost no one goes and sees.
The stories we'd rather tell are Star Wars. As a culture we value The Fast & Furious over almost everything.
These period stories are niche films. Austen for your Mom and the Coens for people that think they're clever. No one really sees them.
No one went to see A Serious Man. Even this thing with Clooney and Johannsen in it won't make $100m. They make stories with as idiosyncratic a bent as you're likely to see with name actors in.
Unless they're adapting someone else's story, no one goes.
They are not the mainstream is what I'm saying and so I don't get the point of wagging a finger at them for making the art that is inside of them.
Let's continue to expand the range, continue to get more black stories, more 12 Years A Slave, more Dope, more Ejiofor, more Lee Daniels, more Tangerine, more Fuqua.
Let's get a black James Bond. Who wouldn't watch another Blade movie??
And let's continue to call bullshit when they cast white guys as black guys.
But the criticism of "the stories we'd rather tell" only holds if there wasn't all these other things happening. Like more people didn't see Fruitvale Station than saw Llewyn Davis. Like Empire isn't a runaway hit.

Not everything has to be everything. There isn't fault and remedy everywhere.
But that dope on Jez is so used to playing 'Gotcha' that he can't even see it.
I suspect that he's in such a white bubble that the Coens loom super large for him, when they're an occassional treat at best for the culture at large.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

TL;DR The Coens make art films, they get to do that. Let's continue to encourage an ever greater diversity of stories and tellers that includes everyone.

 

[Cormcolash]

Yes, yes it is.

But I agree.


I think the major problem is that they exist. David Oyelowo who played Martin Luther King in Selma said one of the problems with being a black actor in UK cinema is the lack of work due to the huge number of "period dramas" always being made where there are no black faces AT ALL.

Cos, you know, empire and slavery.

I think the major problem with period dramas is that the vast majority of them are fucking SHITE and shouldn't be made in the first place, but saps will lap that shit up

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

I think the major problem with period dramas is that the vast majority of them are fucking SHITE and shouldn't be made in the first place, but saps will lap that shit up

Right!

 

[Lili Marlene]

But these aren't the stories we'd rather tell, they're the stories almost no one goes and sees.
The stories we'd rather tell are Star Wars. As a culture we value The Fast & Furious over almost everything.
These period stories are niche films. Austen for your Mom and the Coens for people that think they're clever. No one really sees them.
No one went to see A Serious Man. Even this thing with Clooney and Johannsen in it won't make $100m. They make stories with as idiosyncratic a bent as you're likely to see with name actors in.
Unless they're adapting someone else's story, no one goes.
They are not the mainstream is what I'm saying and so I don't get the point of wagging a finger at them for making the art that is inside of them.
Let's continue to expand the range, continue to get more black stories, more 12 Years A Slave, more Dope, more Ejiofor, more Lee Daniels, more Tangerine, more Fuqua.
Let's get a black James Bond. Who wouldn't watch another Blade movie??
And let's continue to call bullshit when they cast white guys as black guys.
But the criticism of "the stories we'd rather tell" only holds if there wasn't all these other things happening. Like more people didn't see Fruitvale Station than saw Llewyn Davis. Like Empire isn't a runaway hit.

all fair points

Not everything has to be everything. There isn't fault and remedy everywhere.

You keep saying this line but when a film is 100% all the time white you're ok with it? Everything can't be everything but something can be everything white?

As far as i'm concerned a Coen brothers film can be called on this bullshit and still be a good film. Everything can't be everything, having a weird race issue doesn't make it all bad but they don't get to not be called on it because, I dunno, it hurts people's feelings.

TL;DR The Coens make art films, they get to do that. Let's continue to encourage an ever greater diversity of stories and tellers that includes everyone.

It also includes the Coen brothers!

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

You keep saying this line but when a film is 100% all the time white you're ok with it? Everything can't be everything but something can be everything white?

Yes. I am okay with a film being like that.
I'm okay with the Coens, I am deeply and very okay with Terence Davies.
I'm even okay with mid-level Spielberg like Bridge Of Spies.

I want to see more movies like 12 Years.. though. And have Ava DuVernay make more films. And another Blade movie. And a Fast & Furious movie every year if we're making a list.

I just don't buy Jezebel's notion that there is something inherently wrong with that Coen movie because of its cast. He doesn't even make the case you're making. He just says "ooh, this is all very white" and points. It's knee-jerk and empty of thought.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Fair enough.

I do think it's worth noting that every single Coen brothers movie (without exception just about?) has an entirely white cast. What is the actual deal with that?

List of frequent Coen Brothers collaborators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

I do think it's worth noting that every single Coen brothers movie (without exception just about?) has an entirely white cast. What is the actual deal with that?

They're racists? They're auteurs that grew up in a white Jewish Russian suburb in white Minnesota and their milieu informs their oeuvre?
The Coens thought about it and don't feel they can authentically voice people of colour? Wes Anderson includes POCs and gets called out on his racism. Do we want tokenism from the Coens? Black-friendism?
Can the Coens accurately even speak to the black experience in any authentic way? Do we want them to?
I honestly have no idea tbh

What's the deal with Lenny Abrahamson? Or Terence Davies?

Just for context, more people saw the last Vin Diesel movie than saw all of the Coen movies combined, ever.
They are not mainstream filmmakers. They only matter to people that subscribe to the New Yorker and/or like their coffee just so.

The problem, as I see it, is that at one time it used be that people of colour couldn't even see people that looked like them in movies or on TV.
That has thankfully changed, but what we often got in its place was tokenism and black-friendism and magical negroism and whatever else.
We thankfully have way more black actors now. What we too often lack is black stories and black lives told authentically. ---I'm using black and POC interchangeably here and I probably shouldn't.---
Point is, the situation likely improves when we get black producers, black directors, black writers. Then you'll get black actors being authentically portrayed. And this doesn't just mean more slavery stories or stories of redemption, but just as many accountant-happens-to-be-black stories, or The Perfect Guy but directed by a black dude.
I don't know that the Coens are the ones to tell those stories. They're working on making sure that culture has enough wackiness and nebbishness.



TL;DR Stream of consciousness that I am too busy to edit down.

Apologies