General election 2020 (2 Viewers)

[magicbastarder]

it's like any large organisation, the older it is the more complex it gets and the more the processes evolve to protect the process.

 

[Lili Marlene]

it's like any large organisation, the older it is the more complex it gets and the more the processes evolve to protect the process.

I read that Left Case Against the EU book there a few years back, and despite him systematically tearing apart any idea that "reform" is possible on the basis that the entire thing is designed from the bottom up to protect the economies of the central powers above all else, there's still a huge part of me that goes "but surely the EU is a good thing!" Seemingly i'll never learn.

 

[ann post]

The little less than 108k a year they are paid. Are they taxed on that in Belgium or do different MEPs come away with different nett salaries depending on the rates in their home countries?

I dont know, I dont know if they have to run thier staff off these or not either. I've been over there a few times and sometimes you definetly get a sense of being in a massive money fire - I think i had 500ish eu down for 24hrs but that was transport, hotels, perdium - i bought my own food. At the same time you get the feeling of it being a more democratic and slower version of america.

@Lili Marlene

A little less jokingly, the more I learn about how it works the more I fall on the "euro-sceptic" camp, aside from a vague surely everyone getting on is better than digging in and starting wars feeling that I inherited from the 90s.

I have found myself feeling that, and all the worst of brexit fantasies while at the exact same time seeing it in action first hand seeing it is pretty civilised machine. Like sitting in on those talks with walls filled with translators during debates and flicking language channel on the headphone things is pretty star trek.

I think the main issue might be around communication - like giving people a tangible sense of what it is doing, what it does. Last week they were all trashing hungary and threatening them because they are being dicks to lgbt community. This week slovenia are getting beaten up for not having a free press or something. Having been there a few times I can see the value but also completely comprehend that its basically a mysterious blue flag to a huge % of Europeans. They do regular outreach tours BUT eh, it kinda falls to the local political machines to invite people to these town halls (which 100% happen in Ireland more than once a year in multiple locations) so as you'd imagine the audience is completely loaded.

Overall - I'd reiterate that it kinda resembles a slower smarter america. There are most certainly influences from the rhineland megacorps, big agri etc, but at the same time by design the party structure is much wider and it'd be really hard for it to descend into a USA style dual party meltdown.

I mostly wonder if you dissolved it in the morning, would you not just have to build it all again the next day.

 

[ann post]

UPDATE

Just flicked on the Enviro committe

Timmermans* - who is kinda on the vaguely centre socialist side of european stuff just called it an 'Industrial Conglomerate' - that is certainly an honest appraisal.

*he ran for the top job last time on a labour/social platform, was good in debates.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I have found myself feeling that, and all the worst of brexit fantasies while at the exact same time seeing it in action first hand seeing it is pretty civilised machine. Like sitting in on those talks with walls filled with translators during debates and flicking language channel on the headphone things is pretty star trek.

I think the main issue might be around communication - like giving people a tangible sense of what it is doing, what it does. Last week they were all trashing hungary and threatening them because they are being dicks to lgbt community. This week slovenia are getting beaten up for not having a free press or something. Having been there a few times I can see the value but also completely comprehend that its basically a mysterious blue flag to a huge % of Europeans. They do regular outreach tours BUT eh, it kinda falls to the local political machines to invite people to these town halls (which 100% happen in Ireland more than once a year in multiple locations) so as you'd imagine the audience is completely loaded.

Overall - I'd reiterate that it kinda resembles a slower smarter america. There are most certainly influences from the rhineland megacorps, big agri etc, but at the same time by design the party structure is much wider and it'd be really hard for it to descend into a USA style dual party meltdown.

I mostly wonder if you dissolved it in the morning, would you not just have to build it all again the next day.

You see, this is the problem in a way, the world of West-Wing brain and Obama in charge convinced us that politics was about "the best and brightest" smart people hashing it out in an abstract manner when in fact being smart has little to do with it. Tell me what your politics are, not your qualifications, you know? There are winners and losers and it's about getting your side to win.

But I dunno, can't we just get a better EU? Star Trek is basically space communism so yeah i'm ok with that version of it. Make it so.

 

[taubstumm]

You see, this is the problem in a way, the world of West-Wing brain and Obama in charge convinced us that politics was about "the best and brightest" smart people hashing it out in an abstract manner when in fact being smart has little to do with it. Tell me what your politics are, not your qualifications, you know? There are winners and losers and it's about getting your side to win.

But I dunno, can't we just get a better EU? Star Trek is basically space communism so yeah i'm ok with that version of it. Make it so.

on the one hand, the EU sort of dragged Ireland into the modern world — it slowly turned official ireland from a hyper-patriarchal catholic machine into a technocratic neoliberal machine. and, on top of that, it also was a large part of the engine behind the peace process. for those two things, if nothing else, a lot of people in Ireland are sort of vestigially grateful. I know my parents certainly view it this way.

and, on the other hand, the longer I live in germany, the more euro-sceptic I become. the EU is... complicated. it has a completely deranged and murderous approach to migration, for example. and it is, ultimately, undemocratic and quasi-imperial — just in a grey and bureaucratic way. but I get what you mean about not wanting to end up as a gammon ranter about it.

I was reading a good thing recently by Wolfgang Streeck about the EU and Africa that was clarifying about a few core points. have a look if you’re curious.

Jonas Elvander - Interview with Wolfgang Streeck: The EU's war in Africa - Brave New Europe

Planned was an interview concerning European military intervention in the Sahel. It turned out to become a very interesting conversation about European defence policy in general, and the ongoing attempts by France to establish a [...]

braveneweurope.com

still a bit of work needed to get to the space communism type of situation...

 

[Cormcolash]

You see, this is the problem in a way, the world of West-Wing brain and Obama in charge convinced us that politics was about "the best and brightest" smart people hashing it out in an abstract manner

HAH! SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!

 

[Lili Marlene]

on the one hand, the EU sort of dragged Ireland into the modern world — it slowly turned official ireland from a hyper-patriarchal catholic machine into a technocratic neoliberal machine. and, on top of that, it also was a large part of the engine behind the peace process. for those two things, if nothing else, a lot of people in Ireland are sort of vestigially grateful. I know my parents certainly view it this way.

Did the EU do this or was it going to happen anyway? I always think of abortion and the years and years of Ireland ignoring every single European Court of Human Rights request and demand with obfuscation and kicking the can down the road to the next government. It wasn't until the entire of Ireland banded together and pushed at once that anything changed there.

Similarly, the very public revelations of child abuse by the Catholic Church did a hell of a lot in terms of undermining their power internally, more than anything I've ever seen coming directly from the EU.

I don't think these things can necessarily be separated, but once we got onto that low tax rate idea in the late 80s and opened up our economy to whoever wanted at it then integration with ideas from the outside world was inevitable.

I don't want to say the EU did nothing, and it's impossible to say what would have happened without them since history is what it is, but I'm not going to automatically give them credit for every good thing you know?

and, on the other hand, the longer I live in germany, the more euro-sceptic I become. the EU is... complicated. it has a completely deranged and murderous approach to migration, for example. and it is, ultimately, undemocratic and quasi-imperial — just in a grey and bureaucratic way. but I get what you mean about not wanting to end up as a gammon ranter about it.

I was reading a good thing recently by Wolfgang Streeck about the EU and Africa that was clarifying about a few core points. have a look if you’re curious.

Jonas Elvander - Interview with Wolfgang Streeck: The EU's war in Africa - Brave New Europe

Planned was an interview concerning European military intervention in the Sahel. It turned out to become a very interesting conversation about European defence policy in general, and the ongoing attempts by France to establish a [...]

braveneweurope.com

still a bit of work needed to get to the space communism type of situation...

Yeah i think the killjoys on the Aufhebunga Bunga podcast mentioned this interview, been meaning to give it a read.

 

[Lili Marlene]

HAH! SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!

Listen, if you had told me 20 years ago that Crimethinc would amount to nothing I'd have been SHOCKED.

 

[magicbastarder]

Government plans to abandon 12.5% tax rate for fear of 'pariah' status

Responding to the story on RTÉ Radio this morning, Paschal Donohoe said if an agreement on the 15% rate can be reached, then he would recommend a change to Government

www.irishexaminer.com

 

[Space]

Did the EU do this or was it going to happen anyway? I always think of abortion and the years and years of Ireland ignoring every single European Court of Human Rights request and demand with obfuscation and kicking the can down the road to the next government. It wasn't until the entire of Ireland banded together and pushed at once that anything changed there.

Similarly, the very public revelations of child abuse by the Catholic Church did a hell of a lot in terms of undermining their power internally, more than anything I've ever seen coming directly from the EU.

I don't think these things can necessarily be separated, but once we got onto that low tax rate idea in the late 80s and opened up our economy to whoever wanted at it then integration with ideas from the outside world was inevitable.

I don't want to say the EU did nothing, and it's impossible to say what would have happened without them since history is what it is, but I'm not going to automatically give them credit for every good thing you know?

Yeah i think the killjoys on the Aufhebunga Bunga podcast mentioned this interview, been meaning to give it a read.

My distinct memory of early days EU was getting decent roads in Donegal, hugely shortening the journey to Dublin.

 

[rettucs]

Did the EU do this or was it going to happen anyway?

It was Gay Byrne

 

[Lili Marlene]

It was Gay Byrne

I think he made the Turtles on tv as well, i enjoyed that and it corresponds to that time. Also Italia 90 football team, that was Gay Byrne.

 

[egg_]

I don't want to say the EU did nothing, and it's impossible to say what would have happened without them since history is what it is, but I'm not going to automatically give them credit for every good thing you know?

I'm fairly convinced that every piece of environmental legislation we have is because of the EU. And while you could argue that the CAP has had a fairly negative impact on the environment, I betcha a zillion quid that whatever we would have come up with if we'd been left to ourselves would have been 10 times worse

 

[egg_]

it is, ultimately, undemocratic and quasi-imperial — just in a grey and bureaucratic way.

I know v little about EU internals, but ... what is it about it that's undemocratic?

 

[taubstumm]

Did the EU do this or was it going to happen anyway?

there are libraries full of attempts to answer that question! taubstumm’s short answer: it was 70% the EU, 30% plain people of ireland. yes that is a stupid way to answer the question.

Yeah i think the killjoys on the Aufhebunga Bunga podcast mentioned this interview, been meaning to give it a read.

has been one of my favourite podcasts over the last year or so. always plenty to chew on.

 

[taubstumm]

I know v little about EU internals, but ... what is it about it that's undemocratic?

the quick version would be something like this: the EU exists, in part, to set the same rules for all members. it is, ultimately, much more of a legal entity than a political one. this common legal framework supersedes national law in various ways, and, broadly speaking, you don’t get to vote on those rules. you *do* get to vote for a parliament that has *some* powers to do *some* things about those rules. does that count as democratic? that question is left as an exercise to the observer.

and all of that is before you ever get to the obliteration of the greek economy (and slower hollowing-out of other peripheral economies), us voting twice on the nice treaty, frontex pushbacks drowning people in our name, French neocolonialism in north africa slowly becoming de-facto EU neocolonialism, all that jazz.

on the other side: borderless travel, erasmus exchanges, no wars in europe for seventy years (apart from a couple of small nasty ones), ummm... no more roaming charges on your phone bill.

 

[taubstumm]

also, you can agree with the idea that the EU is undemocratic, and basically not really care — I suspect that this feeling is far more widespread than is usually acknowledged.

 

[egg_]

does that count as democratic? that question is left as an exercise to the observer.

I guess it depends on whether by "undemocratic" you mean "the proles have no input" or "the proles don't have as much input as I think we ought to have"

I'm flirting with the idea that the real reason that "democracies" are more pleasant to live in than other regimes has less to do with commoners' input to policy, and more to do with diffusion of power. If there are many routes to and sources of power, the capacity of any one power-holder to wield that power is limited

 

[egg_]

Hah, that sounds a bit libertarian doesn't it? I still think property is theft, just in case you were beginning to doubt me