Funding Up The Arts (1 Viewer)

JohnnyRaz

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No, it's not essential - Irish traditional music thrived for a long time without players being professionals. But here's the thing - the professionals are better. Martin Hayes, for example, is light years ahead of my Da when it comes to playing the fiddle. Similarly, David Bowie's songs are better than mine. If artists are funded enough to do it full-time then we all benefit, I think ... but obvs the state can't be funding every rockstar/ballet/whatever wannabe, cos you get into diminishing returns pretty quick

This is the thing, and something where I always struggle conceptually is the demarcation between 'participant' 'practitioner' and 'artist'..

I think there's probably a better 'greater good' argument for throwing money at the participation part (read about things like 'social prescribing')

but deciding where the line is drawn in terms of funding between the other two categories and who makes that call is problematic
 

moose

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Cormcolash

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This is the thing, and something where I always struggle conceptually is the demarcation between 'participant' 'practitioner' and 'artist'..

I think there's probably a better 'greater good' argument for throwing money at the participation part (read about things like 'social prescribing')

but deciding where the line is drawn in terms of funding between the other two categories and who makes that call is problematic
 

nuke terrorist

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Tchaikovsky ripped off Madness and PiL's tune Death Disco !
I never said the music was bad.

actually in his second bio John Lydon said he went to see Swan Lake
and he didn't like the dancing either.

No, it's not essential - Irish traditional music thrived for a long time without players being professionals. But here's the thing - the professionals are better. Martin Hayes, for example, is light years ahead of my Da when it comes to playing the fiddle. Similarly, David Bowie's songs are better than mine. If artists are funded enough to do it full-time then we all benefit, I think ... but obvs the state can't be funding every rockstar/ballet/whatever wannabe, cos you get into diminishing returns pretty quick

If Bowie was from a poor country or lived in another era he wouldn't have been a musician.

I have have a huge amount of records by DIY artists are as amazing as Low or whatever is
in their own way.

in the past getting into Hansa Studios in Berlin wasn't possible unless you had money behind you.
but when home recording and independent distribution came in it was a huge leveler.

no one knows who wrote Whiskey In The Jar but it's a great tune and the lad probably never made a penny off it.
a working class kid being a career musician or song writer/composer is something that only existed for
a short amount of modern history. it's still out of the question for most very talented people.

any amount people on this forum are better than U2, Hozier, Cranberries, Corrs etc etc

for every Miles Davis there are thousands of mediocre pro musicians.

who do we trust to judge who is worthy of funding and opportunities ?
 

prefuse

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Would mostly agree with egg. Full time musicians usually deliver better results.
But its all subjective.
 

Lili Marlene

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nuke terrorists argument seems to be that there should be no money given to the arts at all.

Which Spotify are doing their part in making happen I guess. Anarcho capitalism 4ever
 

magicbastarder

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the 'we shouldn't give money to X if X can't support itself' argument would be a gas one if applied to agriculture. the beef industry would come to a juddering halt.

not saying that's a *bad* thing, mind.
 

nuke terrorist

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nuke terrorists argument seems to be that there should be no money given to the arts at all.

Which Spotify are doing their part in making happen I guess. Anarcho capitalism 4ever

I said a couple of pages back that I'd spend the arts and culture budget mostly on kids
and you said it was a good idea.
after 20 years I bet you music/arts/culture would take care of itself - instead of spending it on 'artistes'.

spotify is pointless. nowhere near as good as bandcamp or you tube.
I never download music unless I'm sent it by the artist (happened once this year).
I spend more of my spare cash on records than everything else put together.

but I accept without intervention the live music scene is at serious risk at the moment.
 

ann post

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but I accept without intervention the live music scene is at serious risk at the moment.
I'd intervene that it either died years ago or never existed. Take any venue in the country and ask did they pay all their musicians living wage for the hours they put in. The answer will always be no. It was being funded by musicians already.
 

nuke terrorist

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I'd intervene that it either died years ago or never existed. Take any venue in the country and ask did they pay all their musicians living wage for the hours they put in. The answer will always be no. It was being funded by musicians already.

I'm more talking about venues disappearing, people who do the grunt work at gigs, sound engineers...
what is happening with people who do rigging, run P.A. systems and sell or lease instruments that no
one can use at the moment ?
they were guaranteed fairly regular work before but have nothing lined up now.

a certain amount of people can make a living off music and realistically no more than that.

if you play music to try and make a living unless you are a covers band you have very little chance.

Ann Post - I know you have strong feelings on this because we talked about this before and
you often bring this up.

I'm sure like me you have a lot of music you love that deserves far more recognition.
in reality not being appreciated is the sad thing rather than the lack of monetary reward.

I often go to gigs where bands are playing for free for less than 10 Euro entry.
now I'd be happy to pay 20 Euro going to these gigs so no one lost money but not 40
plus so they can make a living off playing in front of less than 100 people.

I remember reading an interview with a guy in a Spanish (Galician) band about 20 years ago:
he was asked if he had a job or was on the dole or a student (it went without saying
he wasn't a pro musician).

he said of course he had a job, he ran a fruit and veg stall in La Coruna.
he hated his job but if he wasn't working how else could he afford to play music ?

but his band released many records, toured Europe and the NE of the US and got to do
other cool things like make friends all over the world.

it was an expensive but very worthwhile labour of love.
even if his band sold their albums for 30 or 40 Euro they still wouldn't have made a living -
they just weren't popular enough.
he accepted this and I think most people playing for the love of music do.

look at how crap the vast majority of popular music is -
it's very hard to make any money off doing anything worthwhile.
I think it's a pipe dream.
 

ann post

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I'm more talking about venues disappearing, people who do the grunt work at gigs, sound engineers...
what is happening with people who do rigging, run P.A. systems and sell or lease instruments that no
one can use at the moment ?
they were guaranteed fairly regular work before but have nothing lined up now.

These were funded by musicians working for free or pittance, which you explained at length there. It doesn't become an acceptable interaction by you explaining something to me i've lived in for 25 years. It just hammers home that even the people working the shows cross the picket every night.
 

nuke terrorist

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out of interest what do you propose to solve this ?

I live on 203 Euro a week disability benefit so there isn't much I can do.
until i was 41 I went to less than 10 gigs in my life and I've only become a regular gig
goer in recent years (mostly due to mental illness and partly rural isolation)

yes, bands should have travel and associated costs covered.
should I pay for their guitars - I don't think so
 

Lili Marlene

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I said a couple of pages back that I'd spend the arts and culture budget mostly on kids
and you said it was a good idea.
after 20 years I bet you music/arts/culture would take care of itself - instead of spending it on 'artistes'.

spotify is pointless. nowhere near as good as bandcamp or you tube.
I never download music unless I'm sent it by the artist (happened once this year).
I spend more of my spare cash on records than everything else put together.

but I accept without intervention the live music scene is at serious risk at the moment.
I just disagree over the state not funding the arts. I think the state should fund the arts.

I suppose there's so many factors at play, e.g. it has been argued, and I agree with this, that you can fund the arts by allowing people to collect the dole without threats of cutting it because they didn't go to a stupid neolib "here's how to sell yourself as a product" seminar over six weeks or similar. This is famously what people did until about, when, the late 90's (?) when it was decided that anyone who did not treat being unemployed as the same as having a job should be punished for it.

I am for funding the arts at a more "elite" level as well although I recognize that it's a bit harder to gauge where the money should go.

and yeah, i'm all for funding the arts for kids, why not.
 

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