European and Local elections 2019 (1 Viewer)

ernesto

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Ah lads - you know I love ye all, but I don't see the point in discussing stuff that's just not going to happen. Ban cars? Pay extra tax at the petrol pump depending on what you earn? C'mon now. We're all grown ups here

Having a card you swipe and pop in a pin code that is associated to your ‘Revenue / Carbon Tax’ account isn’t exactly rocket science. You probably already do it with your bank card. You’d just be using a different card for fuel now everywhere.

Also paying your road tax via at the fuel pump has been on the go in many countries for years without a hitch.
 

ernesto

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Serious increase in the subsidy for buying electric vehicles - scrappage allowance for anyone switching to an electric car would be a good start. Make it applicable to second hand electrics too.
Open garages that will retrofit cars with Electric Motors and batteries.
Incentivise it on a major scale. Put charging points fucking everywhere
 

Unicron

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Ah lads - you know I love ye all, but I don't see the point in discussing stuff that's just not going to happen. Ban cars? Pay extra tax at the petrol pump depending on what you earn? C'mon now. We're all grown ups here
The card thing might be workable. Go to the petrol station, present your card and receive the rebate off your bill there and then. Don't have your card? Keep your receipt and use that to get your rebate down the line.

Actually, it might be workable but too difficult o be practical.
 

ernesto

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The card thing might be workable. Go to the petrol station, present your card and receive the rebate off your bill there and then. Don't have your card? Keep your receipt and use that to get your rebate down the line.

Actually, it might be workable but too difficult o be practical.
theres going to have to be a new government department i think just to deal with climate change / carbon tax / renewable energies etc if theyre going to get anything done in a speedy manor (the sooner the better obviously)
 

therealjohnny

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I think this being Ireland the reality will go something like this. A new department is set up to introduce carbon taxes. Some will say the tax will act as a deterrent to get people to use public transport or use electric cars; neither utility currently at any reasonable operational level. A typical worker who has moved out of the city, works a steady pensionable job but doesn't earn enough to upgrade his car will find he is paying significantly more in carbon tax than his better off urban dwelling neighbours. Ah, but the bigger picture? The money accumulated will go towards improving public transport, rolling out charging points across the country, researching alternatives, etc etc. Except it won't. A cartel will be set up , probably involving someone with the initials D.O.B, to take charge of this enterprise and do what is necessary. Which in this country means turning millionaires into billionaires and billionaires into trillionaires. Nothing much will be accomplished at great expense to our citizens. As usual.

Or we could all cycle to work.
 

egg_

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I think this being Ireland the reality will go something like this. A new department is set up to introduce carbon taxes. Some will say the tax will act as a deterrent to get people to use public transport or use electric cars; neither utility currently at any reasonable operational level. A typical worker who has moved out of the city, works a steady pensionable job but doesn't earn enough to upgrade his car will find he is paying significantly more in carbon tax than his better off urban dwelling neighbours. Ah, but the bigger picture? The money accumulated will go towards improving public transport, rolling out charging points across the country, researching alternatives, etc etc. Except it won't. A cartel will be set up , probably involving someone with the initials D.O.B, to take charge of this enterprise and do what is necessary
Bleurgh, this is just pretty shallow cynicism. If you're saying that the point of the carbon tax is to line the pockets of the private sector then you are dead wrong. "Don't collect tax because the money will be wasted" is a total non-argument

Besides, there are constant efforts ongoing to improve public transport - the whole of Dublin was dug up for years with the new luas stuff, now there's the metro, and all the new Dublin bus routes. New charge points have been announced only just today Government invests €20m to supply 50 new electric car charging points - is it enough? There are windfarms springing up everywhere

Is there corruption when it comes to awarding contracts? Maybe, but if you know anyone who works in procurement in the civil service ask them how much red tape there is specifically designed to stop corruption happening. Is there money wasted? Does stuff go over budget? Of course! This stuff is hard, man. I work in a very well-known non-profit, and there have been projects here that people spent years on that went over budget and off track and got cancelled, and shitloads of money/time was wasted - and I know for a fact that all the people involved are smarter and sounder than me
 

egg_

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A typical worker who has moved out of the city, works a steady pensionable job but doesn't earn enough to upgrade his car will find he is paying significantly more in carbon tax than his better off urban dwelling neighbours
FWIW this describes me, though for the last 18 months or so I've been working at home 100%. Maybe the increased tax will increase pressure on employers to allow employees to work at home - and that'd be an excellent thing for emissions (it saves me a 70km each-way commute, and a shitload of money on diesel)
 

therealjohnny

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I'm cynical for a reason, our past record speaks for itself, and all the public transport upgrades are in Dublin, often servicing the exact same routes, and of no relevance to 90% of the country.

I'm sure there are many working hard at this but I'm just not confident that anything of value will be achieved, certainly not in my lifetime. It's such a huge issue and we are traditionally incompetent at ..well almost everything.

But I'm just jaded with most things in this country. A conversation on the internet won't change my mind so don't mind me.

#hellwordthread
 

therealjohnny

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FWIW this describes me, though for the last 18 months or so I've been working at home 100%. Maybe the increased tax will increase pressure on employers to allow employees to work at home - and that'd be an excellent thing for emissions (it saves me a 70km each-way commute, and a shitload of money on diesel)
Me too. I barely drive at all anymore. My girlfriend however is racking up the mileage at a horrific rate. Some industries and services like the ones we work in will increasingly allow people to work from home, (broadband depending) but manufacturing plants, retail etc won't allow for that.
 

Lili Marlene

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You're talking moving the Overton window on climate change, right? I'm not sure that's a good strategy, there's a fairly substantial risk of polarising/alienating people
second half of this talks a bit about that and the green stuff in general, it's a good listen



They propose retrofitting rural houses first and greatly improving the transport infrastructure countrywide in order to improve the living conditions countrywide and get the rural folk on the green "side"; it makes a lot of sense to me. In a basic sense building huge numbers of off-shore windfarms will give a lot of local jobs, this shouldn't be ignored just because it reads as a bit politically basic. They also point out that we can't spend a decade fighting about a carbon tax that'd only get us 5% of the way towards where we need to be.

I'm dubious about the complicated means-tested carbon card tax and refund systems being suggested in this thread, it reads like the kind of thing that will hurt the poorest the most as they traditionally (for a myriad of reasons) are the least likely to complete long form-filling exercises in order to get a bit of tax back. Does anyone have figures on whether it would make sense to only charge businesses for carbon usage and leave individual people alone. Presumably that problem will sort itself if we retrofit houses/cars and the electorate are behind it because they don't see it as a personal attack on their lives?

While I sympathize/agree with Johnnystress's cynicism, and that'd be my first instinct as well, we need to move past it as this is literally too important to let the usual folk get their way and fill their pockets. They have to be fought tooth and nail every step of the way.

I think it's also telling that they're using the buzzphrase "green new deal" for this, which doesn't actually make any sense in Ireland since the New Deal was a US thing, but it sounds a hell of a lot better than telling everyone you're going to scold them and introduce a new (carbon) tax. I know it's just marketing but if we have to look to the US for our inspiration who cares as long as it works.
 

egg_

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They also point out that we can't spend a decade fighting about a carbon tax that'd only get us 5% of the way towards where we need to be
Nothing will get us 100% of the way there. There are already grants available to retrofit your house Home Energy Grants and for buying an electric vehicle Electric Vehicle Grants (plus for EVs there's VRT relief and v low motor tax)

The reason we might spend a decade fighting about carbon tax is SF and PBP have managed to use public discontent over other stuff (like the banking crisis) to rabble-rousing on these kinds of issues in the past. All the other parties support it
 

Lili Marlene

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Nothing will get us 100% of the way there. There are already grants available to retrofit your house Home Energy Grants and for buying an electric vehicle Electric Vehicle Grants (plus for EVs there's VRT relief and v low motor tax)
I didn't say we had to get to 100% or we don't even try. I assume the grant scheme isn't working and is probably treated like an optional life choice to show off how green you are to your neighbours. From what I can see houses need to be retrofitted and it needs to be implemented countrywide just like electrification was.

The reason we might spend a decade fighting about carbon tax is SF and PBP have managed to use public discontent over other stuff (like the banking crisis) to rabble-rousing on these kinds of issues in the past. All the other parties support it
Well PBP are obliged to follow the popular will so if the popular will says go green they will follow.
Is anyone investing in catalytic converters for cows?

Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars
I have no solution to this and there appear to be many who would happily watch all their children die of heat death in front them before they'd give up the ability to eat steak every 5 minutes. However, I bet a lot could be done with a bit of nudging the market and making it financially more profitable to sell a different product - marketing will follow - I mean, who ate avocados a decade ago?
 

Lili Marlene

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The popular will says "go green ... but make someone else pay for it"
Jesus Christ man, are you really parroting that cynical right wing line? You're onto a loser by even framing the issue like that.

You posted the recommendations from the citizens assembly yourself, let me quote them:

100% of the Members recommended that the State should take a leadership role in addressing climate change through mitigation measures, including, for example, retrofitting public buildings, having low carbon public vehicles, renewable generation on public buildings and through adaptation measures including, for example, increasing the resilience of public land and infrastructure.

80% of the Members said they would be willing to pay higher taxes on carbon intensive activities


God, there's a million different ways of getting the money when it's needed, doesn't have to be through raising the taxes on your average poor person.
 

egg_

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Lili Marlene

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