European and Local elections 2019 (1 Viewer)

therealjohnny

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Dude, he has no say in where any extra money from a carbon tax will go. His party are not in government. This isn't an "admission", it's telling it like it is
I know this. If you reread it you'll see I used the words mooted/proposed/anticipated etc. But I thought it interesting to hear it for the horses mouth as it were that carbon taxes are nothing but a penalty /punishment for using non renewable energy. Punishing someone in Cavan for their diesel use as they commute to Dublin will not make that person suddenly invest in an electric car.. This thread's already been over this a number of times. In short carbon taxes = bullshit

Also I don't care if you feel you have to "admit" anything or not. I'm not directing anything at you.
 

egg_

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Punishing someone in Cavan for their diesel use as they commute to Dublin will not make that person suddenly invest in an electric car ...
Well if you live in Cavan town and commute to Dublin it already makes financial sense to switch to an electric car

Cavan is around 100km from Dublin, so there and back every day is 1000km per week. My 2010 Kia does around 6.3L/100km, so that's 63L of diesel at 1.35 per litre, which is around EUR85. According to ecars Cost Calculator the cost of 1000km in a Nissan Leaf is EUR12.69, so if I lived in Cavan and drove to work every day I'd save EUR72.36 by switching to electric, and you can buy a 192 Nissan Leaf for EUR76/week

Increasing the carbon tax to EUR80/tonne CO2 will add around 15 cents to a litre of diesel, according to this CO2 and you: The carbon tax explained , so that means people commuting from Cavan would actually save money by switching to electric under the new regime ... and everyone knows what Cavan people will do in that situation, right?
 

hermie

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You can't call yourself Green and not be left unless you want to go full fascist tbh, every other middle to centre right position is still wholly dependent on the growth market somehow solving the problem it causes simply by existing.

Fair enough hating on the Greens, I didn't vote for them for a decade following them going into partnership with Fianna Fáil, but the "Green Wave" is 5.5% of first preference votes at a local level and 10% at an MEP level, 45-50% of the country is still voting for the two main parties who won't give a fuck about the environment until their constituents will.
It's fairly obvious the so-called Green Wave is as a result of people's fears about climate change. But Fianna Fáil have seen a similar upswing in votes for reasons that are less clear cut. Undoubtedly whoever felt wronged by them has long since forgotten. The real shame is that the Greens could have even more significant gains if, as ever, parties more to the left weren't held to a higher standard than the establishment parties. They were the junior party with fuck all power in a coalition more than 10 years ago with the economy collapsing. Yet people, who really just don't want to pay a carbon tax, will use it as a stick to beat them with for many years to come.

It was interesting hearing about why the exit polls were so wrong. Apparently green voters are significantly younger and young people are much more willing to participate in polls.
 

Lili Marlene

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It's fairly obvious the so-called Green Wave is as a result of people's fears about climate change. But Fianna Fáil have seen a similar upswing in votes for reasons that are less clear cut. Undoubtedly whoever felt wronged by them has long since forgotten. The real shame is that the Greens could have even more significant gains if, as ever, parties more to the left weren't held to a higher standard than the establishment parties. They were the junior party with fuck all power in a coalition more than 10 years ago with the economy collapsing. Yet people, who really just don't want to pay a carbon tax, will use it as a stick to beat them with for many years to come.

It was interesting hearing about why the exit polls were so wrong. Apparently green voters are significantly younger and young people are much more willing to participate in polls.
Honestly, I don't know why anyone votes Fianna Fail or Fine Gael in the first place outside of a vague "we're a X family" and some out of date stuff about the economy that never made sense when put under a microscope and will make even less sense when we're paying 8 billion a year or whatever just to deal with the hurricane damage.
 

ann post

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Seems like a lot of the SF lost votes swung to FF, maybe just sticking "republican" on the tin still works.
A ton of SF's who joined for the last 1/2 elections went indie (something like 40-50 of them) and they soaked up a lot of SF.

I think there are more valuable options than SF as a protest vote too now though. SD/PBP/GP all at least have some sort of manifesto that isn't fantasizing in a tricolor.

Stupid people vote for FF.
 

hermie

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I saw someone call The Green Party "Fine Gael on bicycles", which is pretty accurate in my opinion.

Just this morning on Newstalk, Ciaran Cuffe admitted that the mooted/proposed increases in carbon taxes that everyone is anticipating 'possibly' would not go back into renewable energy etc but just get swallowed up into the general tax take. He predictably spoke of children walking and cycling to school..once again forgetting that most of the population don't live in Dublin. There is talk that there is a growing left movement within the Greens so maybe this time will be different. We'll see.
Can you name for me a tax that is ring fenced? There actually aren't that many. Even ones that you would think ought to be such as the plastic bag levy, the sugar tax. I'm not quite sure about the reasons for this but presumably it's a combination of it involves a bit more administration (and as a result incurs more of a cost) and sometimes you need more or less money than X for a given project and it's not always efficient to say you have exactly this or that amount to spend.

Look, some form of carbon tax is coming. That's been more or less agreed. Once more tax is gathered there will be more money for sustainable projects, clean energy (and potentially tax credits/rebates in certain circumstances) whether it's ring-fenced or not. But unless you start from a polluter pays standpoint you're going to get nowhere. Beyond that it's what projects do you greenlight and what vested interests (if any) get listened to and how aggressively do you stamp out loopholes. That's where who you vote for really comes into play.
 

Lili Marlene

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Is the idea of "ring-fencing" a tax not a pretty silly thing in the first place?

Like, if we want a more green country then we should be changing how the main taxes are used as it is? The idea that stuff needs to be ring fenced because OTHERWISE IT'S ALL GOING TO TUBRIDY'S POCKET AND CHARLIE HAUGHEY'S PRIVATE ISLAND needs to be gotten over.
 

ann post

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Like, if we want a more green country then we should be changing how the main taxes are used
There is a campaign to move power back to local authority floating around the unions at the minute. The general gist is that about 8-10% is locally controlled and the rest is nationalised, and on the mainlaind/continent its usually closer to 20%. Things like the NTA and Irish water disempower local authority to actually act on things or make any real decisions. I think there is some potential in that campaign in that its easier to lobby a local council than it is to lobby the NTA*

*unless you are VW/Toyota/Fiatchrysler.
 

therealjohnny

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I guess my main gripe is that this carbon tax will increase the financial burden on people who are already struggling, and have little if any positive impact on the environment.
Without having to account for every penny the tax raises it would be good if whoever is in charge could at least get some proactive initiatives going, something tangible that makes people feel they aren't being fleeced again. And not more Dublin centred transport schemes.
IMG_8067.JPG
 

Lili Marlene

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Well, the carbon tax is a silly idea that's easy to grasp, which is probably why the other parties are focusing on it.

With all the tech companies here we have a few years of stable jobs (if fuck-all housing) where we could invest in, god I dunno, retrofitting the entire country to increase the energy efficiency of it all. But that would be a popular idea that would cost money, rather than pretending you care about a carbon tax, an unpopular idea you can then cancel at no financial cost.
 

ann post

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On one hand I take your point and agree with it. I fall squarely into the demographic of people who just cant contemplate buying a new car, never mind a ten year old one. Taxing me will be paying for the upper middle class new hybrid lexus boat puller.

HOWEVER

I'm still aware the planet is in actual physical trouble and either us rich westerners start paying for what we've done or we hand something horrible to our kids. I'm still one of the wealthiest people on the planet like.

I don't think FG are even ballpark capable of the kind of thinking that is required though, nor are FF. SF maybe if it is worth a few seats.

I think the carbon tax is becoming the stick which FG will try and silence the greens with. Who needs action when you've got a election to win like.
 

ernesto

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Well if you live in Cavan town and commute to Dublin it already makes financial sense to switch to an electric car

Cavan is around 100km from Dublin, so there and back every day is 1000km per week. My 2010 Kia does around 6.3L/100km, so that's 63L of diesel at 1.35 per litre, which is around EUR85. According to ecars Cost Calculator the cost of 1000km in a Nissan Leaf is EUR12.69, so if I lived in Cavan and drove to work every day I'd save EUR72.36 by switching to electric, and you can buy a 192 Nissan Leaf for EUR76/week

Increasing the carbon tax to EUR80/tonne CO2 will add around 15 cents to a litre of diesel, according to this CO2 and you: The carbon tax explained , so that means people commuting from Cavan would actually save money by switching to electric under the new regime ... and everyone knows what Cavan people will do in that situation, right?

This is all very well and good in theory, but unless the government is going to loan the money to potential EV owners so they can actually afford them / or subsidise retrofitting. and install charging points at their homes and workplaces, it’s not viable.
Also, Nissan Leafs (leaves?!) don’t suit a lot of people. Work vans / commercial vehicles / people carriers etc...

They need to have that infrastructure in place before Charging people another tax.

I’d love to see the Greens come into power and just starting lashing through stuff that that
 
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egg_

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This is all very well and good in theory, but unless the government is going to loan the money to potential EV owners so they can actually afford them / or subsidise retrofitting. and install charging points at their homes and workplaces, it’s not viable.
Erm ... where's the "in theory" bit in what you're quoting? The govt doesn't need to loan people the money, all the car manufacturers have finance packages - that's where I got the weekly price for a new Leaf from that I quoted above.

The only missing piece is the home charging point (Leaf battery is big enough to get back and forth from Cavan-Dublin). There's a EUR500 grant towards them, looking online it seems they cost around a grand. Maybe that's one thing the carbon tax could be used for - increasing those grants?
 

ernesto

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Erm ... where's the "in theory" bit in what you're quoting? The govt doesn't need to loan people the money, all the car manufacturers have finance packages - that's where I got the weekly price for a new Leaf from that I quoted above.

The only missing piece is the home charging point (Leaf battery is big enough to get back and forth from Cavan-Dublin). There's a EUR500 grant towards them, looking online it seems they cost around a grand. Maybe that's one thing the carbon tax could be used for - increasing those grants?

Ok you’ve glossed over my point that a Nissan Leaf suits persons a - d but doesn’t suit persons e - z. They need something bigger / and / or commercial.

And car financing isn’t suitable for those with poor credit and / or people who can’t affording to be paying every month. A lot of people just arent in that position.
Finance packs are OK, but provided you have the money coming in to pay for it and will be given a decent rate, if any.
Given the fact the the resale value on their current petrol or diesel is going to be SFA, a lot of people don’t have that money available for a new car. It’s basically an assumption that people can afford an electric vehicle, even the entry model ones. Which of course, they can’t.

But maybe with a bigger Green Party Input at EU level, we can start funding more affordable EVs and home charging packs.

To the point where they wouldn’t just be saving a few quid but where they’d be crazy not to take up the offer.

I’m looking into retro fitting my car with an Electric motor in the next few years, maybe I should open a garage for commercial retrofitting
 

ann post

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Like I know cavan is fucking class and all that but its very important to get away from the concept of single occupancy/owner vehicles being a human right.

An electric car still weighs more than its dinosaur fuelled equivalent.

The energy required to move 1.5 tonnes of steel will not be reduced by using a different source, and the govt is background talking about converting moneypoint into a methane polluting hellhole. It still leaves us in the bind where the big 3/4 auto companies will set the policy for the country in regard to transport. electric cars are at very best a transitional crutch to where we need to be.

@ernesto

RE: the trades. the people who use 1/4 ton of tools enough times a day to use a mobile workshop. I know a lot of people where this the reality. Is there any chat on site about ways to get around this?
 

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