Cancelled (1 Viewer)

Cornu Ammonis

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
9,083
Solutions
2
Location
Dublin
Website
brainwashed.com
I had thought that a lot of the problems derived from the fact that evolution is a gene-level process, not an organism-level one, but that a lot of people get this backwards, and suddenly turn into proto-nazi social-darwinists dressing their biases up as science
Evolution is a population level process, selection is at the level of the trait or gene (depending on the type of selection we’re talking about). Say for example a gene that codes for a protein that protects against COVID, then there would be selection for that gene over time and over generations that could be established in a population with higher frequency (evolution).

Equally, it could be a trait like a more robust immune response to viruses that is a combination of genetic and environmental* factors which can become established as these genes are selected for along with the environmental factors (diet, hygiene, medical knowledge, etc.) which can cause a change on a population level (evolution).

In any case, the social Darwinists/eugenicists/Nazis take up the theory completely wrongly and use to justify whatever barmy ideas they had about race (whatever race is) so whether it’s at a genetic or a population level is a moot point as their logic usually falls down within seconds of comparing it with the evidence.

Evolution is a popular topic but it is hugely complicated (duh) and trips up the experts as it operates in a way that doesn’t come naturally to our ways of thinking. It is way more than natural selection, sexual selection, selfish genes, and speciation - and wrapping your head around it is challenging. And there is still much more to learn about it.

*Environment is also a frequently misunderstood term especially when we consider nature vs nurture debates. The environment is usually thought of as the external world outside of the body: other individuals in a population, the ecosystem, food and nutrients, etc. However, the environment is essentially everything that isn’t a gene. This includes all the thermodynamic noise, Brownian motion, epigenetic factors, physiological concentrations, neighbouring cells, etc. that a gene finds itself within. And this is different for every cell, let along every individual or species. Things like thermodynamic noise can have bigger effects early on in development (a single fertilised egg for example could end up not expressing as much of a protein due to temperature, changing the course of development for the entire organism) whereas things like social standing have more subtle long-term effects over a lifespan.
 

magicbastarder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
9,497
Website
stroma.org
Evolution is a popular topic but it is hugely complicated (duh) and trips up the experts as it operates in a way that doesn’t come naturally to our ways of thinking
i read a book once about the gould vs. dawkins spat - punctuated equilibrium vs slow and steady, and the main takeaway i got was that it was amusingly vicious given how close their positions really were.
 

JohnnyRaz

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Sep 3, 2004
Messages
5,881
Location
drifting arround
Evolution is a population level process, selection is at the level of the trait or gene (depending on the type of selection we’re talking about). Say for example a gene that codes for a protein that protects against COVID, then there would be selection for that gene over time and over generations that could be established in a population with higher frequency (evolution).

Equally, it could be a trait like a more robust immune response to viruses that is a combination of genetic and environmental* factors which can become established as these genes are selected for along with the environmental factors (diet, hygiene, medical knowledge, etc.) which can cause a change on a population level (evolution).

In any case, the social Darwinists/eugenicists/Nazis take up the theory completely wrongly and use to justify whatever barmy ideas they had about race (whatever race is) so whether it’s at a genetic or a population level is a moot point as their logic usually falls down within seconds of comparing it with the evidence.

Evolution is a popular topic but it is hugely complicated (duh) and trips up the experts as it operates in a way that doesn’t come naturally to our ways of thinking. It is way more than natural selection, sexual selection, selfish genes, and speciation - and wrapping your head around it is challenging. And there is still much more to learn about it.

*Environment is also a frequently misunderstood term especially when we consider nature vs nurture debates. The environment is usually thought of as the external world outside of the body: other individuals in a population, the ecosystem, food and nutrients, etc. However, the environment is essentially everything that isn’t a gene. This includes all the thermodynamic noise, Brownian motion, epigenetic factors, physiological concentrations, neighbouring cells, etc. that a gene finds itself within. And this is different for every cell, let along every individual or species. Things like thermodynamic noise can have bigger effects early on in development (a single fertilised egg for example could end up not expressing as much of a protein due to temperature, changing the course of development for the entire organism) whereas things like social standing have more subtle long-term effects over a lifespan.

the micro environment is often downstream of the macro environment though ie:

poverty -exposure to pollutants - epigenetic alterations
obesity/stress - lack of exercise - inflamation - epigenetic changes

(not getting into it again today - the above are just off the top of my head)
 

Cornu Ammonis

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
9,083
Solutions
2
Location
Dublin
Website
brainwashed.com
the micro environment is often downstream of the macro environment though ie:

poverty -exposure to pollutants - epigenetic alterations
obesity/stress - lack of exercise - inflamation - epigenetic changes

(not getting into it again today - the above are just off the top of my head)
It goes in both directions though, otherwise you’re just shouting Nature or Nurture depending on your own bias. If we’re talking about behaviour, the absolute most reliable impact on behaviour in humans is genetic - having a Y chromosome or not. Not poverty, not immigrant status, or any other environmental driver of behaviour.

Now, on the surface you could have some “men’s rights activists” use that to justify that men’s behaviour is natural and not due to social constructs that support a patriarchy but they’d be wrong. The macro interacts with the micro in countless ways (neither is truly downstream of each other), and this has led to our society forming power structures where male behaviours and ideals are prioritised over other genders. Absolutism at either end of the nature/nurture argument is ignoring an awful lot of evidence that says “it’s more complicated than that.”
 

JohnnyRaz

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Sep 3, 2004
Messages
5,881
Location
drifting arround
It goes in both directions though, otherwise you’re just shouting Nature or Nurture depending on your own bias. If we’re talking about behaviour, the absolute most reliable impact on behaviour in humans is genetic - having a Y chromosome or not. Not poverty, not immigrant status, or any other environmental driver of behaviour.

Now, on the surface you could have some “men’s rights activists” use that to justify that men’s behaviour is natural and not due to social constructs that support a patriarchy but they’d be wrong. The macro interacts with the micro in countless ways (neither is truly downstream of each other), and this has led to our society forming power structures where male behaviours and ideals are prioritised over other genders. Absolutism at either end of the nature/nurture argument is ignoring an awful lot of evidence that says “it’s more complicated than that.”
Absolutely - saying either nature or nurture is the sole basis is incorrect. The context of multiple influences across the life course.
(said similar myself about 6 rants back…)

The context of my bringing up the ‘downstream’ piece was more in terms of your broader definition of environment. (In that the macro environment can drive changes at a molecular level) - but our ‘natures’ shape the ‘nurture’ environment and vice versa.
 

Cornu Ammonis

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
9,083
Solutions
2
Location
Dublin
Website
brainwashed.com
Absolutely - saying either nature or nurture is the sole basis is incorrect. The context of multiple influences across the life course.
(said similar myself about 6 rants back…)

The context of my bringing up the ‘downstream’ piece was more in terms of your broader definition of environment. (In that the macro environment can drive changes at a molecular level) - but our ‘natures’ shape the ‘nurture’ environment and vice versa.
Ah, got it. I thought you were taking a hard nurture argument there. My mistake!
 

Burgerbarbaby

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Contributor
Joined
Jan 5, 2001
Messages
1,111
Solutions
1
Website
www.facebook.com
Now, on the surface you could have some “men’s rights activists” use that to justify that men’s behaviour is natural and not due to social constructs that support a patriarchy but they’d be wrong. The macro interacts with the micro in countless ways (neither is truly downstream of each other), and this has led to our society forming power structures where male behaviours and ideals are prioritised over other genders. Absolutism at either end of the nature/nurture argument is ignoring an awful lot of evidence that says “it’s more complicated than that.”
This is a marvellous paragraph. 🙌🙌🙌🙌
 

egg_

nerd/hippy
Supporter
Since 1999
Joined
Nov 15, 1999
Messages
12,434
Location
Where dogs wear hats and birds fly backwards
Now, on the surface you could have some “men’s rights activists” use that to justify that men’s behaviour is natural and not due to social constructs that support a patriarchy but they’d be wrong
I know this is super-nitpicky, but it does depend on what "behaviour" they're talking about. A great many of our close relatives in the animal kingdom are territorial, so no matter what we do we're probably never going to extinguish territoriality in ourselves (in fact I reckon that's what private property grew out of). There are sex differences in aggression between sexes in chimps, for example, so it might be unavoidable for us to have them too ... though funny enough the nature/nurture thing isn't clear cut even for non-human animals (see here)

... obvs none of this is any excuse for being a dick, but there are biological constraints on our behaviour. Just because bad things people do are natural doesn't make them good, but if they are part of our nature then we can probably only mitigate them, rather than making them go away entirely
 

seanc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
1,827
The man can land a punchline. Whether he did or not on this occasion I don't know. I've read the joke, not seen it performed.

I wouldn't want to say anything more grandiose like "he's holding a mirror up to society". He sorta is though. He's a jokes man, he ain't Stewart Lee, but he ain't Jim Davidson either.

His last tv thing "I Just Told You" or something like that, was pretty bad. The contestants were clearly actors and unfortunate interns. Maybe he's having a breakdown?
 

magicbastarder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
9,497
Website
stroma.org
“When people talk about the Holocaust, they talk about the tragedy and horror of 6 million Jewish lives being lost to the Nazi war machine. But they never mention the thousands of Gypsies that were killed by the Nazis
No one ever wants to talk about that, because no one ever wants to talk about the positives.”
 

21 Day Calendar

SUUNS
Pepper Canister Church
7 Mount St Cres, Ballsbridge, Dublin, Ireland
Tropical Fuck Storm
The Button Factory
Curved St, Temple Bar, Dublin, Ireland
Myles Manley - 'Cometh The Softies Album Launch 09/06/22
The Workman's Cellar
8 Temple Bar, Essex St E, Temple Bar, Dublin, D02 HT44, Ireland
Beyond The Pale
Glendalough Estate
Glendalough Estate, Co. Wicklow, Ireland

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Activity

Loading…

Support thumped.com

Support thumped.com and upgrade your account

Upgrade your account now to disable all ads... If we had any... Which we don't right now.

Upgrade now

Latest posts

Trending Threads

Top