BREXIT (4 Viewers)

[shitepipe]

I still think this is a ruse to force an election- Johnson is not entitled call one himself so this shitstorm forces a vote of no confidence, which the government will very possibly lose- then it's a Politicians vs The People general election.

The thing is- will moderate conservative MPs fight on behalf of this party? Or will they jump to the Libs and the Conservatives fill their ranks with Brexit Party cast offs.

Some high stakes shit here. I for one am loving it

 

[Lili Marlene]

That makes sense, especially with the Labour party still split between two positions. Moderate conservatives won't jump to Corbyn, Labour will tear itself apart and kick out Corbyn, lose the support of everyone under 45 and the conservatives will rule until the end of the world (2045).

 

[ann post]

Some high stakes shit here. I for one am loving it

The stakes are way beyond what these little shits from posh schools are able to comprehend. In three years they could easily have turned themselves into a puppet state for any number of buyers. IMF budgets probably at the least. Actually could be a bit of a load bidding war because europe wont want china bailing out whatever is left. This is just boris rugby tackling another kid while the world watches.

 

[shitepipe]

Labour's position in any pre-Brexit election will be extremely tricky- the only hope they have of winning is to go balls out no-Brexit as there's no hope of them out-Brexiting the Conservatives. This would be pretty hard for Corbyn to swallow, but it would also (possibly permanently?) alienate them from a whole swathe of their traditional working class base, who frankly can't wait to get out.

 

[David Kronenbourg]

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[hydromancer]

C'mere, and this is probably a question mostly for @billygannon, y'know British democracy right? The one that's collapsing today.

Is there an iron-clad legal basis for it or notionally could Liz just go, "enough of that, I'm declaring absolute power for the monarchy" and the only thing stopping her is that it'd probably be a bad thing to do and running the country would be a hard job for her?

It's possibly part of the problem that they don't have an up to date functioning democracy it's a patchwork of outdated structures from previous centuries. I would be surprised if there is aother state in the world that can contact the monarch to suspend government.

 

[GO]

Only airports & ferries.

They gonna bring back the booze cruise I wonder?

 

[chris d]

They were lolling away about it on the bbc this morning. Then starting giving some labour guy a hard time. Sound.

 

[David Kronenbourg]

are these legal challenges just a complete waste of time or wha..?

 

[hydromancer]

 

[flashback]

It'll end in fighting.

I don't think it will. I'd like it to, but I'm simultaneously too old to fight and too cynical to believe in very much these days, unless I can see the proof written out for me.

I think it's going to end in dampness and shadows. I still think BJ will be scuppered, I think his own party will vanish from underneath him at a critical moment. I think Corbyn will keep on just barely staying irrelevant. Because special people hate him. I think English people will plough on, hating lots of things, foreigners, The French, any kind of labour protection.


The question I'd like to see answered though is: Conservative.

In the language that I've learned, conservative means people who conserve. As in, we like what we have at the moment, we'd like to keep having that sort of thing. We'd like to conserve that. How about we make a movement about basically keeping things fairly consistent and safe, how about we call this party "The Conservatives"?

On the other extreme are The Radicals. Those people think that the status quo is fairly fucked, and they'd like to change a few things. I'm a radical, I think. I think that a few things should be changed by a large amount.

But from what I can see, The Conservatives, both in the US and in the UK (and lots of places) are radical. And Labour, or the left wing (whatever that even means now) are desperately trying to cling to status quos.

So has this name always been a lie? This conservative/radical thing?

I'm honestly too ignorant to know.

 

[ernesto]

‘Northern Ireland only’ backstop is what’s coming

 

[billygannon]

It's quite extreme what Boris Johnson is doing.

The proroguing of Parliament may seem abstract, and only for a few days, but it's very serious. It sets a precedent.
Johnson and his government have tested the waters with this and it means that if it's unchallenged, they could do it again and for longer.

The Parliament is supposed to hold the Executive to account, and is a mechanism to stop an Executive from seizing total power.

I know Nazi comparisons are often called cliched, but this kind of power grab does have some resemblance to what Hitler did in 1933.
At that time, although the Nazi party were the largest party in the Reichstag, they only had 37% of the vote. Through some mechanisms that were legally available to Hitler and the Nazi Party, they forced President Hindenburg to appoint Hitler as Chancellor - when in reality he probably should have been Vice Chancellor. The rest, as they say, is history...

What we're seeing here isn't really the Conservative party. Traditionally the main parties in Britain are "big tents", incorporating the range of political views on the left and right of the political spectrum. The coalitions are made under these "tents", rather than in parliament.

Through sheer bloody mindedness and a very tight organisation, the European Research Group (ERG)/Dominic Cummings and other extremist leavers have taken over the reins of the Tory party. They've forced people in to a series of binary choices where the Tories are now in a situation where it's either you believe Britain must leave the EU on the 31st October 2019 or else you're not in the Tory party.

The thing is...this isn't about Brexit.

It's about after Brexit and radically changing Britain in to a hyper-capitalist enclave, with few social services and lots of benefits for the wealthy.

The NHS is a totemic institution in Britain and there are extremist Tories who want to get rid of it - and replacing it with private healthcare. This is a one example of something a post-Brexit "Tory" party will look to do. They'll dismantle it and, if they're finding Parliament is trying to stop them, they'll simply suspend Parliament and get their way.
They may even just suspend Parliament for lengthy periods of time, with just the occasional ceremonial session to give the impression that the Executive is being scrutinised (a bit like what Putin does in Russia).
This may seem far-fetched, but Johnson has just done it.
It should also be said... it was only three Privy Councillors who went to notify the Queen in Balmoral - all the other Privy Councillors (many of whom would have opposed this), didn't know it happened.

It's often said Fascists don't arrive by marching down your street in jackboots and uniforms...
They sneak their way in - and this is what's happening today in Britain.

Tomorrow is a big, big day in British politics. Hopefully those against Johnson seize the order paper and bring in some sort of legislation to stop this.

I'm very anxious about this because whatever we say about Trump, the Democrats in the US have the House and have the chance to peacefully remove Trump in November next year.

The way things are shaping up in Britain, we may have some sort of fascist state between us and Europe.

I mean... they're going to spend €100 million on advertising for a No Deal Brexit between now and the end of October - that's twice as big as the biggest advertising campaign in Britain. They're not spending it on alleviating the causes of food banks, or on the NHS, or climate change... it's on basically telling people to "Keep Calm and Carry On".

This isn't going to end politely and be hushed away. The fascists are taking charge and getting rid of them is very difficult and very messy.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Ironically the difference is that in pre-Nazi Germany there was a strong communist opposition to be crushed. Half of Labour seem to be more afraid of Corbyn than they are by Brexit or the Tories, probably because they know that for all the talk about the economy crashing if Brexit happens like this, those at the top of the businesses will still be protected.

 

[David Kronenbourg]

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[hydromancer]

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Case of Proclamations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[flashback]

I know Nazi comparisons are often called cliched

Godwin has said a few times that it's appropriate to call many of these actions and people Nazi-like.

Godwin of Godwin's Law: 'By All Means, Compare These Shitheads to the Nazis'

Any masochist who has spent a second taking part in the eye gouge that is “internet discourse” has heard one of its core tenets, Mike Godwin’s law. That law, as recounted by Wired, goes as follows:

gizmodo.com

A lot of what's going on is very similar to Third Reich stuff (this can be picked up for half nothing BTW - The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich - Wikipedia)


I'm thinking I was wrong about Johnson, I thought he was planning this hyper extremist line to purposefully alienate rank and file Tories, who'll turn on him at the last minute, giving him a chance to look like a hard case. Now I think he believes his own press releases, and he actually thinks the best thing the UK can do is crash out.

Which is difficult for me to get to grips with, since I think he's a relatively smart guy.

This advertising campaign will work. People love mythic fairy tales, and if you make them about us-just-about-to-become-great-again then they will love them more. It's exactly how the Third Reich rose, how Trump rose, I'd guess how every fascist movement rose.

What's interesting is it's a psychological thing. It's not dependent on upbringing, or wealth, or any external factor I can see. My brother is a fascist, racist, far-right type. The psychology that I seem to always see is the same, and it's never going to go away. It's always going to be part of society. Even if Trump is dispatched, even if Brexit is scuppered, that same far-right hatred aligned with self pity is going to attach itself to things.
Nazism is always around the next corner.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that a month ago everyone said Boris Johnson was currently trying to bluff his way into convincing everyone that he was serious about Brexit despite not being serious because throughout his entire career he has been more or less a moderate. Maybe he's succeeded.

As for all the Third Reich comparisions for him and Trump, I dunno guys, who are the Jewish people in this situation? and a couple of opposing cosplay freaks fighting in front of the the cameras in Portland is hardly comparable to the thousands of World War I veterans going around murdering each other for 15 odd years that they had in The Weimar Republic.

 

[egg_]

People love mythic fairy tales

I watched a couple of Dr. Who series 5 episodes with the kids over the summer, and was astounded at the amount of British flag-waving. Does this go on a lot on the telly in the UK?

 

[flashback]

who are the Jewish people in this situation?

In the US it's poor, non-white, especially Latin, immigrants. Trump has built, and is building, literal concentration camps.

It's difficult for me to describe how low these Latino immigrants are here. I got the impression that the Jews in Germany were considered to be sneaky, manipulative, malevolent types, eager to outwit the poor Deutsche Leute. The Latin immigrants are not even considered this highly. They are bodies to throw at problems. Ultimately the Third Reich cast Jews as sub-human, but poor Latin immigrants here have been at this level here since I arrived. Latino immigrants simply are sub-human. There's no need to propagate that line, that's surplus to requirements.

Rounding them up in concentration camps, and letting them rot there is a recemt enough line. That's a development since I've been here.



*edit for clarity.