BREXIT (3 Viewers)

[Lili Marlene]

Mitchum was great, proper intellectual debate only, no time for fun or any kind of pop songs after Roxy Music. Sadly missed.

Even if he copy and pasted an article once.

 

[rettucs]

Mitchum was great, proper intellectual debate only, no time for fun or any kind of pop songs after Roxy Music. Sadly missed.

Even if he copy and pasted an article once.

he was the reason why I once used Mitchum deodrant

 

[pete]

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[flashback]

Aye.

We got Special Needs Donald, but SND doesn't actually do a huge amount of anything, including damage. He's fucked up the Supreme Court, bits and bobs around the place. The UK is permafucked though.

You know things are bad when Paddies start feeling sorry for the UK.

 

[billygannon]

In a no deal scenario - and Britain is left with food shortages - they could always do what they suggested the Irish do and just eat potatoes.

 

[flashback]

In a no deal scenario - and Britain is left with food shortages - they could always do what they suggested the Irish do and just eat potatoes.

Here Billy,

Are people legit bricking it over there now?

I feel like in the US there is maybe some acknowledgement that a fuck up was committed, but we can kind of carefully ratchet ourselves out of the situation if we're not idiots (bit of an ask).

The UK seems to have this boa constrictor-like fuckedness is coming and just inching worse day by day.

(edit - not that you're in the UK, but I'm guessing you can gauge things fairly well via family etc)

Another edit - what's so strange is the UK can just decide "oh, actually let's not totally wreck ourselves for the foreseeable future after all But they don't, because of magic reasons I'm assuming. It's really strange. I think it's another example of the difference between Irish and English psychology. If Ireland voted to leave and then realised it was a cataclysmic fuck up, we'd have no problem doing a quick ahem, and changing our minds. The Brits though have *magic reasons* why this isn't an option. I'm thinking these magic reasons aren't all "because I don't like foreigners and darkies", there's more to it than that.

 

[David Kronenbourg]

The UK seems to have this boa constrictor-like fuckedness is coming and just inching worse day by day.

I am in the UK and it's basically this.

The Brits are ignoring it hoping it will go away, the foreigners like myself, are prepping to get the fuck out of dodge.

 

[flashback]

I am in the UK and it's basically this.

The Brits are ignoring it hoping it will go away, the foreigners like myself, are prepping to get the fuck out of dodge.

Man.

Then you have Corbin coming along and saying Yerra! Well, that's a done deal. Let's just press this thing through
I'm just not getting it. There's all these English people who really fucking hate being part of the EU it seems. Even Corbin, who'd I'd sort of normally like honestly, despite the fact that every media outlet on the planet thinks he's a cunt but can't explicitly explain why he's a cunt. (Apart from Brexit that is.)

 

[billygannon]

Here Billy,

Are people legit bricking it over there now?

I feel like in the US there is maybe some acknowledgement that a fuck up was committed, but we can kind of carefully ratchet ourselves out of the situation if we're not idiots (bit of an ask).

The UK seems to have this boa constrictor-like fuckedness is coming and just inching worse day by day.

(edit - not that you're in the UK, but I'm guessing you can gauge things fairly well via family etc)

Another edit - what's so strange is the UK can just decide "oh, actually let's not totally wreck ourselves for the foreseeable future after all But they don't, because of magic reasons I'm assuming. It's really strange. I think it's another example of the difference between Irish and English psychology. If Ireland voted to leave and then realised it was a cataclysmic fuck up, we'd have no problem doing a quick ahem, and changing our minds. The Brits though have *magic reasons* why this isn't an option. I'm thinking these magic reasons aren't all "because I don't like foreigners and darkies", there's more to it than that.

Well... my sister-in-law's husband's company has been planning for Brexit for the past two years. They've left their office and are now working from the owner's house. Their biggest client is funded by an EU grant - so they're going to lose that. He's been working night and day on this for a couple of years now.

My brother works in NI and lives in the Republic. His income has already dropped by 20%. He told me he spoke to the Irish government Brexit adviser and he's said deal or no deal, it's a gigantic pain in the arse. There will be loads more paperwork etc. It's screwing up his business too.

Jo's best mate, who lives in Cumbria, said to her she can already seeing prices rise.

However... this is all calm before the storm stuff.

It'll hit Britain hard next Spring. The Withdrawal agreement is needed because if it's a "hard Brexit" it's going to be actual chaos.

What I found about living in England is that you're kind of cut off from the continent - and in London you're in a total bubble. I mean in London you barely even know anywhere outside the M25, let alone what's happening in Germany, France etc.

The thing is... Britain has to leave the EU now. It's damaged goods. Unless there is a really comprehensive vote to remain (e.g. +70% to remain) then it'll be hard for the EU to accept them back in. The question EU members will have is "are they going to vote to leave again?"

 

[flashback]

The thing is... Britain has to leave the EU now. It's damaged goods. Unless there is a really comprehensive vote to remain (e.g. +70% to remain) then it'll be hard for the EU to accept them back in. The question EU members will have is "are they going to vote to leave again?"

Yeah. And if they said : There were irregularities in the last referendum. We'll have another referendum, accept the answer, and not vote on any of this nonsense for at least the next twenty years, that's not going to be enough?

What have they left to lose at this point? They've already screwed it up. If they lash off another referendum, vote to stay, and come back cap in hand asking for forgiveness it's going to cost some lads their careers, fine. If they vote to leave again then they really are that stupid and nothing's going to help them.

Leaving is a really bad idea. No one's going to address that?

 

[hydromancer]

The EU would take the UK back in a heart beat imo. The problem with Corbyn is that he is ineffective. The Torys are making collosal mistakes which his party (the main opposition party) is not taking advantage of it doesn't even offer an alternative to Brexit.

 

[Unicron]

The thing is... Britain has to leave the EU now. It's damaged goods. Unless there is a really comprehensive vote to remain (e.g. +70% to remain) then it'll be hard for the EU to accept them back in. The question EU members will have is "are they going to vote to leave again?"

Do you think? I've been assuming that if the British went "errrr, actually can we stay please," the rest of the EU would go along with it because it's the easiest way to go, and then constantly bring it up over the course of 30 years whenever there's a fight, just like everyone does in a dysfunctional relationship.

 

[flashback]

I suppose the fact that no one in the UK has properly nailed it to the door, and started a political party whose clearly stated agenda was not leaving the EU, looking to poach seats off Lab but also possibly Tories, implies they don't fully realise that it was a mistake.

I'd have to believe that if someone saw that market, they'd have done something. Labour are not doing very well, nor are the Tories. This issue is something I could see founding a new party, no?

 

[Lili Marlene]

The EU would take the UK back in a heart beat imo. The problem with Corbyn is that he is ineffective. The Torys are making collosal mistakes which his party (the main opposition party) is not taking advantage of it doesn't even offer an alternative to Brexit.

People say he doesn't want to touch the poisoned chalice of being in charge during Brexit, same as Boris Johnson and Rees-Moggs don't, but I also wonder if maybe it's something to do with the strong left-cases that have been made for leaving the EU

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[ann post]

the leave has gotten so hardline polarised that they have edged into NI politics territory. You can't suggest anything, you can only try and our brexit the next in line. Ala rees moog and all those armchair guys. Corbyn can't really intercept this or implant any kind of change without first joining the gang. like in NI for years the only hope for a union candidate was to out-extreme paisley to get any attention.

I really wish Martin McGuinness was around for this. That kind of presence in NI would add some steering, current SF don't have anyone of that insight who can fill those shoes. Took him half a lifetime to figure out how to deal with unionists, I don't see May doing it in two years.

 

[hydromancer]

I suppose the fact that no one in the UK has properly nailed it to the door, and started a political party whose clearly stated agenda was not leaving the EU, looking to poach seats off Lab but also possibly Tories, implies they don't fully realise that it was a mistake.

I'd have to believe that if someone saw that market, they'd have done something. Labour are not doing very well, nor are the Tories. This issue is something I could see founding a new party, no?

Well it's arguably the emergence of an opposite type of party that caused the problem in the first place along with the Torys themselves being conservative and having a long standing anti EU faction. It would be possible maybe but it would be a very long term plan I think.

They English are maybe still a little bit caught up in the whole empire and superiority thing which is possibly a psychological problem that may take a long time to work out. Until then everything will be locked into a stalemate or economic cold war. The EU is not a light weight when comes to legality and negotiation and the UK has more than likely overestimated its power in regard to it. The whole event is barmy to begin with of course.

 

[billygannon]

Yeah. And if they said : There were irregularities in the last referendum. We'll have another referendum, accept the answer, and not vote on any of this nonsense for at least the next twenty years, that's not going to be enough?

What have they left to lose at this point? They've already screwed it up. If they lash off another referendum, vote to stay, and come back cap in hand asking for forgiveness it's going to cost some lads their careers, fine. If they vote to leave again then they really are that stupid and nothing's going to help them.

Leaving is a really bad idea. No one's going to address that?

The thing is that a very large number of leave voters were Labour supporters.
It’s only since 1992 that Labour officially supported EU membership. Tony Benn, Michael Foot... and Jeremy Corbyn... were always opposed to the EU. It’s a mix of seeing it as a big capitalist superstructure to being something that decimated the British manufacturing and coal industries.

When the UK joined in the 70’s cheaper French, Italian and German cars, steel, coal etc flooded the UK market and it was one of the reasons why Britain nosedived economically in the 70s.

Thatcher was massively pro-Europe (up until the late 80’s). She negotiated the big rebate - which was just balancing out the relationship. France and Germany were screwing the UK up until then.
Thatcher and the Tories played a big role in the creation of the Single Market

So... many of the old school Labour voters have always been skeptical of the EU. Many of them joined UKIP

You then throw in the traditional nationalism in to equation and you can start to see why a lot of working class Northerners and midlanders voted leave.

There’s also immigration
Now...
it’s worth thinking about how many people moved from Central Europe to the UK after 2002. Brown and Blair happily opened the door to migrants because it meant cheap labour. People from Central Europe naturally moved to the UK: more money, more opportunities, an open multicultural society and... crucially... most of the rest of the EU had put a 7 year block of people from new EU countries moving to them
Basically a lot of people moved to the UK over the last 15 years
You also need to add in to equation that UK nationals are having loads of kids. Unlike the rest of Europe the “native” population of England is growing.
England is one of the most densely populated parts of Europe - especially the south. It’s also an island so you can’t really just drive over to anothe country. This means there has been a much bigger demand on health, education etc
That’s fine with a left wing government who are happy to spend money on services
But you then get the very pro-EU Osborne coming in with unnecessary austerity and basically tearing the arse out of the NHS etc
The Lib Dems were part of this government too

Then we get this referendum. It’s called by a Tory government who campaign to remain. So do the Lib Dems. And Tony Blair and Gordon Brown
If you’re from a working class background in the arse end of post-industrial England, you’re just going to not do what they ask you to.

I mean there are a whole bunch of other factors - the media, Facebook,xenophobia etc
But a lot of these factors which caused a Leave vote haven’t been resolved
Going back and asking people to vote “the right way” will just result in, possibly,another vote to leave

In the next episode of Billy’s lengthy Thumped posts about Brexit, I will look at why PR could have prevented the EU referendum in the first place

 

[billygannon]

the leave has gotten so hardline polarised that they have edged into NI politics territory. You can't suggest anything, you can only try and our brexit the next in line. Ala rees moog and all those armchair guys. Corbyn can't really intercept this or implant any kind of change without first joining the gang. like in NI for years the only hope for a union candidate was to out-extreme paisley to get any attention.

I really wish Martin McGuinness was around for this. That kind of presence in NI would add some steering, current SF don't have anyone of that insight who can fill those shoes. Took him half a lifetime to figure out how to deal with unionists, I don't see May doing it in two years.

Yes - it’s really bad McGuinness isn’t around

 

[hydromancer]

 

[Unicron]

I don't know what those cases are the EU can be a bit free market I suppose compared state social structure which might be considered more socialist ? I think local structures are still very important. With the EU something's I like and others I don't but I probably don't know a whole lot about it either.

One thing he doesn't like AFAIK is that EU restricts state support to industry.

There was an interesting sounding book released recently (I haven't read it, but I've read about it) which is basically a left critique (assessment is probably a better term) of Corbynism which included a section about how some of his ideas are "Stalinist", which I don't think was a good term to use. Coming at it as someone not drenched in left theory Stalinism to me means gulags n' shit but they were referring to it in terms of the notion of socialism in one country I can see what they mean (though again, I still don;t think the usage was a good idea, but it probably got them some attention).

I've found some of his comments about foreign workers to be a bit dog whistleish, as Billy pointed out a lot of Kippers were formerly labour supporters, but I suppose it could be coming from a place of one-nation socialism. Personally I still think the target of any ire should be the people hiring foreign workers and driving the wages down and to governments as well rather than the workers themselves.

We also, like the UK (properly I think) didn't go with the 7 year block on workers coming in after the great eastern expansion of the EU and I don't remember too many complaints here about them suppressing wages, I have heard plenty of purely racist comments about eastern europeans being here in the past but it was their very presence rather than their effect on the economy that pricks were complaining about.