BREXIT (2 Viewers)

hydromancer

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Well the EHRC concluded even that the labour party were in fact in breech of the law on the matter and Corbyn responded by saying the whole thing was "overstated" and indeed also from his own public statement and I quote "I do not accept all of it's findings" but it is not problematic if a governing labour party itself founds such a organisation which is government funded and then downplays or does not accept it's findings when it itself is investigated ? What really lost the election for labour was Brexit or more precisely that is what won it for Johnson anyway.
 

Lili Marlene

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Well the EHRC concluded even that the labour party were in fact in breech of the law on the matter and Corbyn responded by saying the whole thing was "overstated" and indeed also from his own public statement and I quote "I do not accept all of it's findings" but it is not problematic if a governing labour party itself founds such a organisation which is government funded and then downplays or does not accept it's findings when it itself is investigated ? What really lost the election for labour was Brexit or more precisely that is what won it for Johnson anyway.
Are you just a tory or what? with that kind of selective quoting?? fucking hell man. It's like reading the Express. Or a Hadley Freeman column.

the big question is when is the EHRC report on the Tories being published ?
This is whatabouttery, how very dare you.


I should say, Despite my earlier characterisations, I do know intelligent considered working class tories who are pro Brexit and want to reduce immigration and they have good points that I struggle to argue with. They're not all thick angry racists. But a lot of them are, the loudest ones. And a lot of the rest are two out of three of those things.

I was having a conversation with one such guy the other day, we were both utterly baffled by the fact that most Americans we've met are thoroughly decent people, even the pro Trump ones. And yet, 'Merica.

I don't want to be tarring them all with the same brush I mean, because that would me a prick. There are legitimate concerns.
Or maybe I mean the banality of evil. I dunno anymore.
There's plenty of good reasons to be pro-Brexit imho. The very basis of how EU financial system works being one of them. I'd find it hard to be pro the Brexit that seems to be coming January 1st though.
 
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ann post

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There's plenty of good reasons to be pro-Brexit imho. The very basis of how EU financial system works being one of them. I'd find it hard to be pro the Brexit that seems to be coming January 1st though.
Kinda.

The thing about it is, convincing as they may have been, there wasn't one valid solution ironed out to the problems before they nailed themselves to brexit. That is what we call 'stupid' in the queens english.
 

rettucs

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There's plenty of good reasons to be pro-Brexit imho. The very basis of how EU financial system works being one of them. I'd find it hard to be pro the Brexit that seems to be coming January 1st though.
moreso, there are plenty of good reasons not to be in the EU, I would suggest.

getting out of the EU, having been in it, not so much.
 

Lili Marlene

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moreso, there are plenty of good reasons not to be in the EU, I would suggest.

getting out of the EU, having been in it, not so much.
Sure yeah. I don't know what is a more plausible idea, changing the EU from the inside over 10-15 years or getting out without destroying your country over 10-15 years.
 

rettucs

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Sure yeah. I don't know what is a more plausible idea, changing the EU from the inside over 10-15 years or getting out without destroying your country over 10-15 years.
which begs the question, are they destroying their country willingly, or is is simply due to gross incompetence?
 

Lili Marlene

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which begs the question, are they destroying their country willingly, or is is simply due to gross incompetence?
Well, I guess it gets complicated I guess.

I'm thinking it through here, a lot of people might be happy with their country being "destroyed" (as I termed it) if they get back control of their own local resources and feel useful. Like, would farmers in Ireland be happy making less money but actually selling on produce, instead of being paid in subsidies? I think many would, as long as they're not being left destitute by it, you know?

There must be something similar in regards Brexit.


Like, leaving aside Johnson, who i'm happy to just roll my eyes at as a faux-bumbling posh Brexit mascot.
 

rettucs

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Well, I guess it gets complicated I guess.

I'm thinking it through here, a lot of people might be happy with their country being "destroyed" (as I termed it) if they get back control of their own local resources and feel useful. Like, would farmers in Ireland be happy making less money but actually selling on produce, instead of being paid in subsidies? I think many would, as long as they're not being left destitute by it, you know?

There must be something similar in regards Brexit.


Like, leaving aside Johnson, who i'm happy to just roll my eyes at as a faux-bumbling posh Brexit mascot.
its a very romantic notion alright, and I'm sure there's a bit of that in there. Though I doubt very many people voted for it on that premise. I doubt any person who voted it would have considered that the UK would be worse off, in terms of their own personal circumstances, than they are now.
 

taubstumm

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Well the EHRC concluded even that the labour party were in fact in breech of the law on the matter and Corbyn responded by saying the whole thing was "overstated" and indeed also from his own public statement and I quote "I do not accept all of it's findings" .
what happened was that there was a nasty outbreak of socialism in the labour party, and the blairites needed a stick to beat it back into the shadows. it’s profoundly depressing that the stick they chose was “antisemitism,” but then the UK is a strange old place
 

Lili Marlene

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its a very romantic notion alright, and I'm sure there's a bit of that in there. Though I doubt very many people voted for it on that premise. I doubt any person who voted it would have considered that the UK would be worse off, in terms of their own personal circumstances, than they are now.
Well, I think they might indeed have voted for romantic notions.

I don't know if feeling useful should be termed romantic, although maybe that's the reality of how we live now. Doing a job that doesn't feel utterly pointless is a romantic idea.

As something I read recently put it, back in the 90s people studied literature and dreamed of leaving it all behind and going to Europe, now people study "entrepreneurship" and dream of studying literature.
 

flashback

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which begs the question, are they destroying their country willingly, or is is simply due to gross incompetence?
I don't think they planned that far ahead. I think the majority of Brexit voters were sold lines about the England of Today being broken resulting from immigrants and meddling foreign influences, and they voted to get rid of that sort of thing. Theie reasonable enough logic being: we ran our own country for generations, I don't see why we need to have Germany and fucking Maastricht ruling us now.

It's always easy to sell the line that your country is being screwed up by foreigners, and that it used to be better. There'd been a solid PR campaign explaining how over the top and absurd EU influence had been, with their tetrahedral, politically correct, asbestos free, bananas running for years.

The idea that the average punter thought through the various implications and economics of ditching just didn't happen. They wanted the RIGHT to cook THEIR MACKEREL on bits of tinfoil, like the GOOD LORD had intended, the same way they did back when THEY WON THE WAR.
 

Lili Marlene

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I did have a conversation with a lad who grudgingly voted for Corbyn last year (and in fairness, most of his workplace were going to Tommy Robinson marches so he's in the thick of it) and all he wanted was Tony Blair again. I was like, "uh I dunno, I mean he led the Iraq war" and I didn't even get into the rest of the stuff and he just responded "yeah, but I just liked Blair. He seemed like a good guy, what else do you want?"

Like, I suppose that's the UK equivalent of the Biden vote? Just give me the end of history again plz, I want to live my life.
 

flashback

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Like, I suppose that's the UK equivalent of the Biden vote? Just give me the end of history again plz, I want to live my life.

If you have FPTP voting, you almost don't have any say at all on who you'd like in power.

These guys are voting for the less shit option of a shitty scenario. The voting system mandates that, you have no option. Like, all this stuff is presented as if people have a choice, and there's options there, and you just have to pick the option you'd like, because Democracy, right?

Granted, actually wanting Blair back is a bit hard to process, but compared to this Boris gobshite, every sane person is picking Blair. This pick the slightly-less-hideously-fucked choice is what FPTP voting virtually guarantees.
 

seanc

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I honestly think this is best we can hope for from representative democracy.
But FPTP is not representative, nor is how the constituencies are arranged here.

I've tried explaining this to Brits of all stripes, and they had the chance to have a referendum on it a few years ago. They just don't want to know. "It's the worlds oldest democracy, mate!"

Most people over here fundamentally don't understand democracy, and they're happy about it. In that sense, why wouldn't you want Blair?

I think I've typed myself into agreeing with you. hmmm.
 

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