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Lili Marlene

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Surely yous have all come across antisemtic tropes being used regularly.
Weirdly not growing up. As a kid all I knew about Jewish people was the basic differences from Christianity and what happened to them in the Holocaust.

Now I assume this was because there were no (openly?) Jewish people in my class/school or in my friend groups. Certainly there was no shortage of racist jokes but antisemitism was so tied up with being a Nazi that I never saw the tropes outside of that specific context.

I obviously see it more these days but I wonder was it just a fluke or did I just not know what to look out for.
 

therealjohnny

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I was in my late teens and on a holiday to America before I heard any Jewish jokes in real life. Some people I knew used to joke about gas chambers and ovens with their Jewish mate. I was a bit shocked.
 

hiadudiad?

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One of my primary school teachers told us Jews have big noses and are shrewd with money, I forget in what context this came up. Some of my classmates then started calling me Jewboy (for my nose rather than my money). It didn't really catch on though.
 

egg_

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I'm sure there is a cohort who buy into general anti-Semitic stuff, the likes of Jim and Gem maybe. I'm not anti-Semitic I'm just saying look at the Rothschilds.
Meh. Mentallers who hate everyone don't count.

Surely yous have all come across antisemtic tropes being used regularly.
Erm ... not that I've noticed. Can you give me an example?
 

flashback

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Weirdly not growing up. As a kid all I knew about Jewish people was the basic differences from Christianity and what happened to them in the Holocaust.

Now I assume this was because there were no (openly?) Jewish people in my class/school or in my friend groups. Certainly there was no shortage of racist jokes but antisemitism was so tied up with being a Nazi that I never saw the tropes outside of that specific context.

I obviously see it more these days but I wonder was it just a fluke or did I just not know what to look out for.
when I was growing up there was a Jewish family across the road from me on the corner, and a Jewish kid in my class.

The kid in my class was called Zack. So right off the bat he was a fucking hero to me. Fucking *Zack*. Might as well have had superpowers.

Then, piling on insult to injury, the prick dodges all the religious shit I had to do because "he is Jewish". I had no idea what it meant, despite having a Jewish family over the road. I thought it was similar to French or something. Either way I decided I needed to become Jewish, pronto.

I asked Zack if he'd let me be a Jew; and honestly, he was two classes above me and I had a bit of a man crush on how cool he clearly was. I'm not sure what he said, I think he said he'd talk to his parents and think about it.
My impression of Judaism was it clearly wasn't a real religion, not a proper religion like Catholicism or Protestantism. It was a bit woolly and didn't involve standing up in the Church doing readings and things. I thought I could safely transition, but keep it quiet only whipping it out in cases of emergency like when you'd have to stay with relatives and they'd take you to Mass and so on.

I never became Jewish. And had to keep on doing the readings in Church. Like all the rest of us poor non-Jewish bastards.

In college I was granted Honorary Protestant status. Seemingly the people I associated with assumed I was a filthy Prod, and let me in to their clan. I fit right in.

The rest of the cunts thought I was French.
 

flashback

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Erm ... not that I've noticed. Can you give me an example?
Hmm.

I mean, antisemitism is clearly a thing. Big nosed, money grabbing jew. Jewing people over. The money/nose bit can't have passed you by surely?

Thing is, so... sigh... sooooo, anti Jewish sentiment is now generally unacceptable. You can't really go marching around saying "fuckin JEWS!, fuckin... PAIN IN MY ASS!".

But you pretty much can say that about Muslims. And (in the US at least) you pretty much can be racist against Latinos, and Black people too as long as you're not too shouty about it.

So on the one hand racism exists. A lot. There's loads of racism, and sexism, and all sorts of things. And it's vile and sickening, and I've seen it, and I've done what I can given the circumstances but it's never enough. You meet full on racist cops here, and they talk, and they are curious about you since you're Irish, and invariably you end up in weird racist nudge/wink scenarios.

AND, from some of those same cops, I've heard antisemitic lines (often mixed in with misogyny), but I don't believe it's anywhere near as bad as Black/Muslim/Latino hatred.

But, on the other hand the antisemitism I've seen here is limited to essentially "Fuckin Jews, we can't touch them. They have lawyers, they are too clever. Pricks." The sentiment I've seen is Jews are annoying, best left alone, but they are full normal humans. That is not the case for other non-white groups.
 

Bernie Lomax

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Am I being naive but is it not the likes of the daily mail and Michael Gove who are actually being antisemitic by gaslighting and scaring Jewish people into thinking Corbyn, who has no record of saying anything antisemitic in the past, is an enemy of the Jewish people. Why is no one talking about that?!
 

ernesto

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Am I being naive but is it not the likes of the daily mail and Michael Gove who are actually being antisemitic by gaslighting and scaring Jewish people into thinking Corbyn, who has no record of saying anything antisemitic in the past, is an enemy of the Jewish people. Why is no one talking about that?!
Edit: both
 

egg_

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Hmm.

I mean, antisemitism is clearly a thing. Big nosed, money grabbing jew. Jewing people over. The money/nose bit can't have passed you by surely?
I've heard this stuff in the movies/tv, but never in real life - apart from the phrase "jewing over", but that's about as indicative of anti-semitism as calling someone a spa is of ableism.
 

egg_

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Besides - stereotyping and racism are not the same thing. I've gotten the occasional "typical Irish" remark when I've worked away from home for swearing or drinking or singing, but being Irish has never stood in my way professionally or legally or socially. There's an Irish stereotype, but anti-Irishness is really not a thing AFAICS (anymore)
 

moose

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I've heard this stuff in the movies/tv, but never in real life - apart from the phrase "jewing over", but that's about as indicative of anti-semitism as calling someone a spa is of ableism.
Few people above gave the examples I'd give. You've stated one yourself here but denied it's a trope. I'm not gonna argue the definition with you.
 

egg_

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"denied" is a strong word there @moose

To be clear - I don't think use of the phrase (which, now I think of it, I can't remember ever hearing in real life) is necessarily indicative of underlying (systemic or individual) racism.

I'm kinda working through my owns thoughts in public here but ... if I understand your thinking right it goes something like this:

1. certain phrases indicate that someone is an anti-semite
2. sometimes your hear people use these phrases, whether in real life or in popular culture
3. therefore anti-semitism is a thing

Is that approximately right? If it is then yes, I have strong doubts about number 1
 

moose

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"denied" is a strong word there @moose

To be clear - I don't think use of the phrase (which, now I think of it, I can't remember ever hearing in real life) is necessarily indicative of underlying (systemic or individual) racism.

I'm kinda working through my owns thoughts in public here but ... if I understand your thinking right it goes something like this:

1. certain phrases indicate that someone is an anti-semite
2. sometimes your hear people use these phrases, whether in real life or in popular culture
3. therefore anti-semitism is a thing

Is that approximately right? If it is then yes, I have strong doubts about number 1
Certain phrases are antisemitic and whether you or I believe them to be or not is beside the point. Labelling people who use the phrases as antisemitic or not is also beside the point. Likewise with phrases that exhibit prejudice against sexual orientation or skin colour etc. If someone makes a homophobic joke or slur in the company of heterosexuals it's still homophobic.

The phrases don't appear out of a vacuum they stem from a history of antisemitism. I'm not sure how to explain this any better so hope this much helps.
 

egg_

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Certain phrases are antisemitic and whether you or I believe them to be or not is beside the point. Labelling people who use the phrases as antisemitic or not is also beside the point.
Ok I think I understand where you're coming from now, and I respectfully disagree. We can talk more about it if you like, or stop here
 

flashback

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Why is the dominating conversation is about antisemitism?



I'm picking and choosing here, but you've got Haaretz saying Corbyn isn't antisemitic, and in the meantime Johnson and his party are straight up talking shit about all those nasty brown people.

From where I'm sitting there's grades of racism, and some racist beliefs are more acceptable than others. Islamophobic views? Basically fine. Tories aren't even limiting themselves to that, Sikhs FFS? You have to try quite hard to hate Sikh people.
 

nuke terrorist

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strangely (even as a little traveled Bogger) i don't think i've ever spoken
to a Jewish person in my life.
i find antisemitic stereotypes absolutely alien and bizarre when i hear
them in the media.
in Ireland anti Israel / Zionism has sometimes spilled in anti semitism
but rest of the bigotry i've almost never encountered.
how did this shite originate ?

Tomi Reichental's documentary was the best Irish TV i've ever seen.
huge empathy with Muslims / refugees and just wanted the truth
to be told (only got angry with holocaust deniers).

Miriam Margolyes (Jewish actor) strongly defended Corbyn
on C4 News the other night but she said his leadership was
poor and Starmer would be better leader.
Miriam's documentaries are good too.

but the UK media ignoring Islamophobia particularly since 2001.
says it all really. always been a huge problem in western media.

the late Lebanese American academic Dr. Jack Shaheen did a lot
of study into the history of Arab/Muslim screen portrayals in Hollywood.

Jack Shaheen - Wikipedia

Jack was always a very pleasant man but his findings were damning.
how are people going to be happy being portrayed negatively
over 90% of the time ?
 

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