pride vs rte (3 Viewers)

[nooleen]

And yet it took great argument for women to be 'allowed' to have their own leagues in sport. It's cheap to you but it was fought for bitterly by women.

I have a simple solution though. Male games be made more gentle, for non-binary male-pubertal participants to take part. Easy.

 

[Cormcolash]

I have a simple solution though. Male games be made more gentle, for non-binary male-pubertal participants to take part. Easy.

Football, then?

 

[nooleen]

Football, then?

Yeah sure
Football, wife-bashing, that sort of thing

 

[Cormcolash]

Associating football with wife-bashing is being a bit kind to it these days

 

[nooleen]

Objecting to wife bashing is a bit old fashioned now all right. I vote marriage be declared an open contest where the physically strongest wins from now on.

 

[rettucs]

And yet it took great argument for women to be 'allowed' to have their own leagues in sport. It's cheap to you but it was fought for bitterly by women.

what's cheap to me?

 

[YoungHearts]

Last time I checked I wasn't a "nazi", but these terms keep getting thrown around by many people engaging in this discourse. And then some people feel frightened to say how they feel, reasonable people (I actually hate the fact that I feel I need to qualify that) because they don't want to be lumped in with nazi's! It's deadening and frustrating.

I have no idea if actual nazi's are hijacking well-evidenced conflicts in human rights discourse at present, and quite frankly, that point actually distracts from the issue/s. Nazi's and whatever related ilk will always do what they do - and that is something to fight against always, but it doesn't negate the fact that the actual issues at hand also need to be addressed.

People are entitled to disagree, particularly on fundamentals. I don't go along with these internet slogans - not least because they make no sense. I want policy-makers to do their job - and engage in the rigorous research required to reach a decision based upon fairness and the actual facts - something that Twitter chat, and all the algorithms and hashtags in the world won't solve. I don't want policy makers to fear what someone says about them on Twitter, or the results of some poll that some random person decided to enact one day, or a petition that seeks to boycott people actually doing the work. It's a horrible period we are in, but I remain optimistic, somewhat improbably.

Sport might not mean a lot to a lot of people - we all have our own interests - but it has rules of engagement and fairness for obvious reasons, across sex class and then across different sports. The relevant sporting bodies are working all of this out - and hopefully rational and fair resolutions are being achieved. Precedents need to be set in unprecedented times. The world is always about a balancing of rights, but we all know this.

I find a lot of this discourse so draining because there is so little logic to so much of it - and as a woman I cannot believe this is the situation at present - really it is the most misogynistic period I have lived through coming up to 4 decades. I cannot believe I am writing that, but it's true - we need major surgery on society and intellectualism and the way we communicate with each other to really turn things around - I still believe we can, but we need a return to reason and calm logic, not bursts of outrage and "hot takes" that don't really go anywhere.

Basically what I am saying is we need to pretend the 21st century hasn't happened and start everything again from 1999 from 1st January next year, is everyone okay with that?

 

[therealjohnny]

I have a simple solution though. Male games be made more gentle, for non-binary male-pubertal participants to take part. Easy.

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[nuke terrorist]

Last time I checked I wasn't a "nazi", but these terms keep getting thrown around by many people engaging in this discourse. And then some people feel frightened to say how they feel, reasonable people (I actually hate the fact that I feel I need to qualify that) because they don't want to be lumped in with nazi's! It's deadening and frustrating.

I have no idea if actual nazi's are hijacking well-evidenced conflicts in human rights discourse at present, and quite frankly, that point actually distracts from the issue/s. Nazi's and whatever related ilk will always do what they do - and that is something to fight against always, but it doesn't negate the fact that the actual issues at hand also need to be addressed.

People are entitled to disagree, particularly on fundamentals. I don't go along with these internet slogans - not least because they make no sense. I want policy-makers to do their job - and engage in the rigorous research required to reach a decision based upon fairness and the actual facts - something that Twitter chat, and all the algorithms and hashtags in the world won't solve. I don't want policy makers to fear what someone says about them on Twitter, or the results of some poll that some random person decided to enact one day, or a petition that seeks to boycott people actually doing the work. It's a horrible period we are in, but I remain optimistic, somewhat improbably.

Sport might not mean a lot to a lot of people - we all have our own interests - but it has rules of engagement and fairness for obvious reasons, across sex class and then across different sports. The relevant sporting bodies are working all of this out - and hopefully rational and fair resolutions are being achieved. Precedents need to be set in unprecedented times. The world is always about a balancing of rights, but we all know this.

I find a lot of this discourse so draining because there is so little logic to so much of it - and as a woman I cannot believe this is the situation at present - really it is the most misogynistic period I have lived through coming up to 4 decades. I cannot believe I am writing that, but it's true - we need major surgery on society and intellectualism and the way we communicate with each other to really turn things around - I still believe we can, but we need a return to reason and calm logic, not bursts of outrage and "hot takes" that don't really go anywhere.

Basically what I am saying is we need to pretend the 21st century hasn't happened and start everything again from 1999 from 1st January next year, is everyone okay with that?

the 90's were shit!
much worse than now. I won't insult you by giving dozens of examples.

I'd guess you are just referring to having rational debates based on facts.

social media is silly. if people don't like it then don't bother with it. Is serious discourse really done on twitter??
I ain't on it.

I don't know any women or runners or doctors or for that matter, women doctor runners (I know two of those) who think women with hyperandrogenism should be banned from athletics.

doing this in mid career is particularly cruel.
but if the end game for trans sportswomen is no possibility of competing, then it's better to tell two Irish rugby players NOW rather than disappoint far more transwomen further down the line; when they had worked for years towards sporting goals that disappeared in front of them.

 

[Deadmanposting]

but if the end game for trans sportswomen is no possibility of competing, then it's better to tell two Irish rugby players NOW rather than disappoint far more transwomen further down the line; when they had worked for years towards sporting goals that disappeared in front of them.

No one is telling trans women they can't compete
They can still compete with everyone else that went through male puberty

 

[nuke terrorist]

No one is telling trans women they can't compete
They can still compete with everyone else that went through male puberty

That was a really pointless petty post - why even bother

 

[Deadmanposting]

That was a really pointless petty post - why even bother

I dunno man.
Saying they can’t compete, when they clearly are welcome to, is kind of missing the point

I mean that respectfully

There’s a notion out there that they have been banned. And they haven’t.
The longstanding rules – the very basis of why we have female sports – have just been clarified.

 

[YoungHearts]

the 90's were shit!
much worse than now. I won't insult you by giving dozens of examples.

I'd guess you are just referring to having rational debates based on facts.

social media is silly. if people don't like it then don't bother with it. Is serious discourse really done on twitter??
I ain't on it.

I don't know any women or runners or doctors or for that matter, women doctor runners (I know two of those) who think women with hyperandrogenism should be banned from athletics.

doing this in mid career is particularly cruel.
but if the end game for trans sportswomen is no possibility of competing, then it's better to tell two Irish rugby players NOW rather than disappoint far more transwomen further down the line; when they had worked for years towards sporting goals that disappeared in front of them.

Yes, it was really about the having rational debates based on fact part in the main (I am a long-winded lady!), but honestly, having also lived through the '90s, I think this period is much more misogynistic, probably partly internet-driven, the proliferation of pornography, and various other factors. But the '90s were also bad, for so many reasons. Could really do with another late-night discussion show that gets interesting people around the table - in person - to thrash out the issues of the day - there hasn't been a brilliant one for a while.

 

[Deadmanposting]

It's a horrible period we are in, but I remain optimistic, somewhat improbably.

As a woman, you're one of the few people commenting here that this issue directly affects, and your input is always appreciated
By pretty much everyone, I think

 

[YoungHearts]

As a woman, you're one of the few people commenting here that this issue directly affects, and your input is always appreciated
By pretty much everyone, I think

I really appreciate you writing that, and for the discourse, it's always interesting .

 

[ann post]

I have a simple solution though. Male games be made more gentle, for non-binary male-pubertal participants to take part. Easy.

Like a Hugby kinda vibe?

 

[nuke terrorist]

I dunno man.
Saying they can’t compete, when they clearly are welcome to, is kind of missing the point

I mean that respectfully

There’s a notion out there that they have been banned. And they haven’t.
The longstanding rules – the very basis of why we have female sports – have just been clarified.

I was talking about the women's category - thought that was pretty obvious.
it needed to be clarified before more and more transwomen were let down in mid career.

 

[nuke terrorist]

Yes, it was really about the having rational debates based on fact part in the main (I am a long-winded lady!), but honestly, having also lived through the '90s, I think this period is much more misogynistic, probably partly internet-driven, the proliferation of pornography, and various other factors. But the '90s were also bad, for so many reasons. Could really do with another late-night discussion show that gets interesting people around the table - in person - to thrash out the issues of the day - there hasn't been a brilliant one for a while.

I had big hopes for the debate show Mary Beard did but it was really disappointing.
especially when her own docs were so great...

 

[rettucs]

No one is telling trans women they can't compete
They can still compete with everyone else that went through male puberty

whats it like living in such a black and white world?

 

[rettucs]

I was talking about the women's category - thought that was pretty obvious.
it needed to be clarified before more and more transwomen were let down in mid career.

this. The argument is so nuanced. Of course there are compelling arguments for not allowing trans athletes to compete, on the basis of fairness (in a sporting context), but imposing some blanket rule for all can't ever work.

People claiming I was dismissing sport as being a nonsense, thats not what I was saying, but I think you know that. In the context of the overall struggle trans people face, its a small part and there are more important things to focus energies on. Think what you want of sport overall, or the important of the right of women to compete and participate (I spent 10 years coaching women's sport and fighting for many of those rights), but again, in the context of this debate, there are more important things to focus on.