pride vs rte (1 Viewer)

I have a lot of thoughts about this, some of which I am sure would be deemed somewhat problematic in much of today's climate (which of course does not account for much of the world, just a particular kind of internet-soaked terrain). I find that reality both upsetting and weirdly deadening. I enjoy nuance, and seek it. I don't like sloganeering, I don't like the simplistic hectoring that goes on, and I don't like bullies. I think this is the most misogynistic period I have experienced as still a fairly young woman lucky enough to be on this planet. We are not living in great times for nuance and true compassion. As a teacher, and as a person, I am incredibly worried. I think these times will be looked on very poorly. I find it disturbing. and in my own little opinion, I think the 21st century has really not been one of enlightenment, but more one of narcissism. But I might ring in to Liveline later and see how I get on. WATCH THIS SPACE. :eek:
 
Take it up with them so.

No, It's on them to be fair, being an awareness organisation and not offering anything but a few finger quotes isn't going to help anyone wade through this. Right now they've effectively given one vague sentence. They'll be rinsed now for a few days, people will see just who they are still partnered with and it wont progress advocacy for minorities. They need a clear well explained line on this asap as advocates rather than a 4 page tweet with one active sentence in it.
 
Also all this reminds me of this post on similar topics by our lord and saviour Diddles


'Radical Feminism' or old school Feminism centres women and girls, does not include men (they can support feminism but can't be a feminist ) and there are several points of conflict with trans rights activists (TRAs)/Intersectional Feminists. TRAs believe that Trans people were always the sex the identify with, therefore Trans Women ARE Women and Trans Men ARE Men. Radical feminists do not believe a person can change sex, although people can be whatever gender (a social construct) they want to be and should be supported to live their lives however they want. They feel that women and girls are oppressed and brutalised all over the world because of their bodies, their sex, and they can't identify out of that oppression by saying they are men. Also, reinforcing gender stereotypes makes it harder for women to be treated equally. There is also a conflict regarding altering of language concerning women's health and rights issues. Many organisations have stopped using the word 'Woman' in order to include a very tiny population of transmen and non binary people, leading to the use of words and terms like 'Womxn' , 'cervix havers', 'menstruators', 'birthing parent' by governments, NGOs, public health bodies and posing serious issues for women who face language barriers, have special needs etc. when attempting to access information about their own bodies (Conversely, there has been no altering of public information that centres men, e.g. Movember, Men's Shed's etc., no men are called 'prostate havers' or 'ejaculators' on the HSE website). There are also concerns about some men taking the piss out of the whole thing and calling themselves lesbian women and there are issues around sports, prisons, changing rooms and lots of other problems that can't be solved by just shouting TWAW, TMAM, cancelling and de-platforming women who disagree and calling them nazi TERF bigot bitches who are literally killing trans people with their mean ways.
 
No, It's on them to be fair, being an awareness organisation and not offering anything but a few finger quotes isn't going to help anyone wade through this. Right now they've effectively given one vague sentence. They'll be rinsed now for a few days, people will see just who they are still partnered with and it wont progress advocacy for minorities. They need a clear well explained line on this asap as advocates rather than a 4 page tweet with one active sentence in it.

Yeah hence me saying take it up with them. I just stuck it up here as I hadn't seen it in the thread.

Anyhow this tweet might give ya a wee insight. But again if you have concerns with it address them to the author not me.

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If people approach discussion with an anti-trans agenda, ignorant or not, then fuck them, there is no place for them in a civilised society.
This is about the crux of the issue

Pride and the trans groups say that the Liveline broadcast was transphobic, offensive and harmful
They also don't say what was specifically offensive, and like Cornu said they don't owe an explanation to anyone
A reasonable person could say that the bar to offence seems not only low but opaque

And if you do engage, and consider the issues respectfully, you might end up believing that the existing hard-won protections for women are worth protecting as is. Or you want the word woman kept in law or whatever. You believe in these protections and definitions, but that makes you anti-trans.

And even if you reasonably believe yourself to be person who believes in equality and empathy and a safe society for all, that puts you out of civilised society.

We're changing every law with the word 'woman' in it, and you're a hatemonger if you want to talk about it.
It honestly seems like a really toxic way to engage with laws we all have to live with.


If I'm misquoting you, I apologise
But that is what it comes off like.
 
This is about the crux of the issue

Pride and the trans groups say that the Liveline broadcast was transphobic, offensive and harmful
They also don't say what was specifically offensive, and like Cornu said they don't owe an explanation to anyone
A reasonable person could say that the bar to offence seems not only low but opaque

And if you do engage, and consider the issues respectfully, you might end up believing that the existing hard-won protections for women are worth protecting as is. Or you want the word woman kept in law or whatever. You believe in these protections and definitions, but that makes you anti-trans.

And even if you reasonably believe yourself to be person who believes in equality and empathy and a safe society for all, that puts you out of civilised society.

We're changing every law with the word 'woman' in it, and you're a hatemonger if you want to talk about it.
It honestly seems like a really toxic way to engage with laws we all have to live with.


If I'm misquoting you, I apologise
But that is what it comes off like.
I understand what you are saying and I appreciate how considered you are with your wording.

I didn't hear the debate. That shit was on twitter the same day as the Rwanda shit was going on in britain and it was full of terfs, transphobes and nazis, so I opted out that day.

But, trans women are women. Anyone trying to argue otherwise, in my book, fits into one of the three categories listed above.
 
I suppose my additional point would be that not everyone agrees with certain blanket statements, and for very valid reasons, but are often diminished, vilified, and dismissed through various methods, such as being called umbrella terms (that tend to make little sense). I have seen this happen countless times, with a particular kind of incoherent rage being directed specifically at women expressing concern, and simply giving reasonable points of view, as is one's right. This is one of the many reasons I am not on Twitter, apart from it being a drain on time, and we all have to die, have finite time on this earth, and I would prefer to be by the sea.

My other point would be that human rights is always about a balancing of rights to reach a harmony suitable for a more compassionate society. And that is only reached through applying rigour, expertise, and patience. It isn't about being bullied into silence or being afraid to ask questions that are really valid, and it is also about listening as well, isn't it? Anyway, I still stand by being dismayed by the 21st century. Maybe I'll buck the trend, live well into the next century, and look back on all of this like it was all a bad dream o_O.
 
So the group that's been on Liveline each day are transphobic and sketch in general. I don't think that's up for debate. They're even reaching out to Andy NGO to amplify their cause which says more than enough of what their motivations are.

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Just in case the parallels and indeed the actual connection with racism are still not clear, here is a Twitter thread.

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we've had enough so-called contentious issues in this country over the last few years to sort the shit from the chaff.

Even if you're in any doubt on what position to take, just look at the parties championing either side and the decision kind of makes itself.
 
It's heartening to see a discussion on this that hasn't turned into an all-out war.

This is why Thumped > Twitter
 
I still really think pride need to make a super clear statement about this. If I wasn't on thumped, all these cherry picked tweets would pass me by. That leaves an information void that is open to be filled by pretty much anyone. Twitter isn't worth a fuck outside two hours either way
 
This all goes back to my earlier point, I arrive at my own position. I am not being lumped in with any groups, sides, and so on. I don't give a fig what some film director on Twitter says. I have concerns. Well-founded and reasonable. And I won't be bullied into flattening the nuance around those concerns into a more seemingly palatable position for certain people, groups, sides. I find this aspect of the discourse incredibly toxic, divisive, and honestly, offensive. We are not one big blob. My whole background, what I originally trained in, is Human Rights law, and even back then, this was clear. I am shocked that things have come to this. I don't take Twitter seriously, I take policy-making, balancing of rights, and rigour seriously. Sorry to sound like a pedant, but that's how I feel, and I haven't had any coffee yet.
 
Just in case the parallels and indeed the actual connection with racism are still not clear, here is a Twitter thread.

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A cousin of mine moved over to America a few years back and started going out with a woman over there. For some reason she friended me on Facebook and over the course of the pandemic, her posts went from vaguely racist pro Trump stuff to what you see below:
 

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