BREXIT (9 Viewers)

[nuke terrorist]

Norn Iron should go independent.

 

[magicbastarder]

The place would be bankrupt in a week, no? Unless that boost has reversed that situation.

 

[nuke terrorist]

The place would be bankrupt in a week, no? Unless that boost has reversed that situation.

it keeps being trotted out that 75% of N.I. trade is with UK.
I meant that aspirationally independence is about as realistic as Irish unity but no one is interested in the idea.

 

[ann post]

*trade

Loads of the civil service admin for uk is farmed out to NI, something like 40% of the economy depends on it, and a ground level even more.

In terms of pure geography and in terms of growing the fuck up i support Irish unity. I wouldn't support it for idealistic nationalism vibes where the end game involves driving people back to England or something.

Anywho uncomfortable as it seems to be for some outraged IT journalists I think Brolly was 100% accurate, and at a simple level comprehension of the history of our country outside the FFG/BBC lens is high priority.

I'm pretty sure some people are still shocked to hear that the troubles were a civil rights struggle and not just the brain child of people who just materialised out of thin air to cause bother from scanning Twitter.

 

[Cormcolash]

I thought Brolly was pretty spot-on, just like he usually is

 

[Space]

I'm glad I got hear all about the lads in Waterford who lived through the troubles. Aye mate dead on.

 

[nuke terrorist]

I'm glad I got hear all about the lads in Waterford who lived through the troubles. Aye mate dead on.

until digital TV came in people in South East got Welsh versions of UK channels

I didn't watch Brolly video but will give it a go

 

[nuke terrorist]

I learned nothing about the war in N.I. at school. the history books ended in 1968 and I left school in 1993.
the history of Ireland is really short on inspiration of any sort. when it comes to fucking things up for ourselves we shoot ourselves in the foot time after time.

good point by Brolly that Robert McLusky is someone I never heard of because no one made a fuss afterwards. the Finucane family, Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy took decades of strongly committed campaigning to get any results.
agree with everything Brolly from McLusky onwards.

Free and freedom are big words and I don't associate them with government of the Republic of Ireland.
I live here in a semi failed state, that was a disaster for almost four decades after independence.
the word 'free' has a high threshold for me.

I don't really have more empathy for someone in Kerry, Mayo, Tipperary, Armagh, or Belfast than I have for someone from London, Glasgow, Ethiopia, Yemen or Afghanistan.
to me being Irish is only a flag of convenience for sport purposes.

I have no idea how to solve the status of Northern Ireland amicably in my lifetime

 

[taubstumm]

I live here in a semi failed state, that was a disaster for almost four decades after independence.

the more I learn about the early history of the free state, the more impressed I am at what crazy stuff they managed to pull off, even though, in many ways, it *was* a disaster for a long time after independence

ardnacrusha was the infrastructural equivalent of a national space program or the like. and they did it while being a load of catholic weirdos, traumatised by civil war, partition, and economic war, and with ww2 looming in europe. wound up supplying 80% of ireland’s electricity, made economic sovereignty a possibility, demonstrated to the world that such things were possible, and inspired mao to dam the fucking yangtze! and it *still* supplies a slice of ireland’s electricity to this day. and they also started all the social housing programs, universal schooling, reclaiming the treaty ports, etc, etc. there’s a reason why so many people were so loyal to devalera. (I say that as no fan of the man)

anyway, happy christmas pricks

 

[nuke terrorist]

the more I learn about the early history of the free state, the more impressed I am at what crazy stuff they managed to pull off, even though, in many ways, it *was* a disaster for a long time after independence

ardnacrusha was the infrastructural equivalent of a national space program or the like. and they did it while being a load of catholic weirdos, traumatised by civil war, partition, and economic war, and with ww2 looming in europe. wound up supplying 80% of ireland’s electricity, made economic sovereignty a possibility, demonstrated to the world that such things were possible, and inspired mao to dam the fucking yangtze! and it *still* supplies a slice of ireland’s electricity to this day. and they also started all the social housing programs, universal schooling, reclaiming the treaty ports, etc, etc. there’s a reason why so many people were so loyal to devalera. (I say that as no fan of the man)

anyway, happy christmas pricks

Yeah, detaching Ireland from the UK and later the 1937 treaty were achieved surpringly easily.

30 years ago Brian Lenihan Sr was one of the old guard of Irish politics but in the early 60's he brought in legislation ending a lot of the censorship in Ireland. This bodes the question how right wing were the politicians before that?
When colonialism ends things can often go badly wrong Angola, Mozambique, Mobutu in Zaire, dictatorships in former USSR, Burma, Cambodia, Saudi... I could go on.

The Irish government in 1921 seemed to think "ah, sure we'll sort it out as we go along".
On Social issues they were often brutally cruel.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

On Social issues they were often brutally cruel.

They, as were the vast majority of the population, schooled and acculturated to a particular strain of Catholicism. That norm was common across the treaty divide, and even was fairly strong in the labour/union side of things as well.

For a lot of them (and a lot of folk at large) the idea that the Catholic Church wouldn’t have had a major role in the state would have seemed odd.

But yes - they achieved a lot against the odds, and perhaps a soft abandoning of the north allowed them the latitude to do this to some extent??

 

[nuke terrorist]

They, as were the vast majority of the population, schooled and acculturated to a particular strain of Catholicism. That norm was common across the treaty divide, and even was fairly strong in the labour/union side of things as well.

For a lot of them (and a lot of folk at large) the idea that the Catholic Church wouldn’t have had a major role in the state would have seemed odd.

But yes - they achieved a lot against the odds, and perhaps a soft abandoning of the north allowed them the latitud

 

[nuke terrorist]

Sorry about above post / mistake.
I am in over my head here at this stage but Jim Larkin is an interesting yardstick for what was happening in Ireland then.
He left Ireland shortly after lock out ended for the USA. He came back about 1923 and stayed heavily involved in the trade unions and leftist activity in Ireland often trying to make connections abroad Inc with the USSR. He was briefly a TD in the 40's.
He died in 1947 and wouldn't have been impressed how the country developed.
Also he was a practising Catholic throughout his life

 

[ann post]

Joe Brolly, who grew up not a million miles from me saying the same thing but with more eloquence.

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If Joe Brolly doesn't float your boat, Bernadette McAliskey spoke of the same things on TV this week - and brings it round to Brexit, which obviously once again has thrown the six counties under the bus to serve London's interests.

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[nuke terrorist]

If Joe Brolly doesn't float your boat, Bernadette McAliskey spoke of the same things on TV this week - and brings it round to Brexit, which obviously once again has thrown the six counties under the bus to serve London's interests.

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I saw the end of this last night.
i'll put it this way there are two main anarchist groups in Ireland Workers Solidarity Movement in Dublin and Organise! in Belfast.
I have never been involved in either.
Organise! as I know was set up because they thought WSM pandered too much to republican politics.

class politics has to appeal to all working class people. what does Bernadette offer working class folks in N.I. who are protestant or aren't Catholic?

and what kind of support do folks in N.I. want from people in the South?

I have no connection with N.I. so when I just don't get it - I could be completely wrong

 

[ann post]

class politics has to appeal to all working class people. what does Bernadette offer working class folks in N.I. who are protestant or aren't Catholic?

What you have to grasp first is at the time, the catholic in NI was the minority in need of a civil rights movement. That's where she put her energy, that was her own grouping and she stood up to try and secure rights for people who didn't have them. Modern day versions of this would be the the rights of same sex couples. Imagine an environment where you went marching to support someone's right to same sex marriage in cork getting fired on by troups sent from Dublin and you are getting somewhere close to environment she was working in at that time. Shooting civil rights demonstrators in broad daylight.

There is no logic in trying to transplant that to sit with the ideals of a movement in dublin that can pick and choose the demographics and spread of their political struggle - I'm not saying they don't do good work, it's just they are not being shot at for doing it, and often WSM's are people who believe in working to give the rights they have to everyone rather than people born into a system designed to remove thier vote for all time.

It is spelled out in Joe brolly piece and the above - the southern population are largely happy to just assume everything northern and catholic was terrorism, that there were options that were not voilent in securing human rights. When people start getting their heads around that concept and not defaulting to the kinda cliche's that FFG and the BBC have pushed for a few generations then I wont be in a position where i have to explain it. I am not ever going to say that the struggle for human rights in the north was perfect, or that anyone has to justify every single part of it to accept that - but the concept that i'm in my 40s and only a near border kid, and I did have a few close shaves, that Brolly is in his 50's and McAliskey is in her 70s and we all share a common experience of south that only likes the convenient parts of the north is a fair enough measure of what is required from the south.

 

[magicbastarder]

i know a chap whose family were very much tied up in the troubles; a close relative of his was one of the hunger strikers. what was weird was he was vocally anti-BLM, and did *not* like it when i likened some aspects of the movement and the law enforcement reaction to it, to the reaction of the authorities in NI to the civil rights movements there. i never got very far into why he was anti-BLM bar some cousin of his in the states is a cop and told him 'the real story'.

 

[nuke terrorist]

my point in bringing up the anarchist groups was the one based in Belfast was less tolerant of sectarian stuff not the other way around.
WSM are sound generally but I thought that was a weak point (working with hard left Republican (anti SF groups) on some projects).

when Bernadette was young it was the era of civil rights in the US and national liberation in Africa, so of course it wasn't surprising she was got involved in that type of activism.
I have always heard Free Staters speak highly of the N.I. Civil Rights movement which was largely ended by Bloody Sunday. maybe it didn't get the support it should have at the time from the south.

I honestly think things have moved on hugely across the world since then and people can see where people years ago when wrong.
Zimbabwe took only a few years to go from liberation from white rule in 1980 to Mugabe being a dictator.
as a kid I was one of millions who sign a petition for Lithuanian independence but I wouldn't do that now.

actually explaining why many folks are opposed to things that would remove religion from schools, hospitals etc. would be helpful.

why do small extreme evangelical chuches in N.I. (Free Presbyterian etc.) have such a big say in N.I.?

the Anglican church is probably the most similar religion to the Catholic church and is slighly more moderate but historically was hugely involved colonialism and benefited from it.
in the mid 90's Robin Eames the C.o.I. archbishop (from the south) made a pitiful fence sitting attempt to stop the Orange Order in Drumcree instead of telling them to fuck off.

paramilitary wise even anti sectarian leftist group the INLA who had lots of protestants involved were brutal.
several dozen of the faction were killed in the civil war - many of those by their own comrades when splinter groups were formed or as suspected informers.

I look back at this time see all the terrible things that happened and much of the response to brutal colonialism / army occupation is sadly in the 'what not to do' category.
and the Christian churches have a lot to answer for.

 

[Cormcolash]

I saw the end of this last night.
i'll put it this way there are two main anarchist groups in Ireland Workers Solidarity Movement in Dublin and Organise! in Belfast.
I have never been involved in either.
Organise! as I know was set up because they thought WSM pandered too much to republican politics.

class politics has to appeal to all working class people. what does Bernadette offer working class folks in N.I. who are protestant or aren't Catholic?

and what kind of support do folks in N.I. want from people in the South?

I have no connection with N.I. so when I just don't get it - I could be completely wrong

WSM and Organise are both alright really, in my opinion, but it's definitely the case that Organise seem much more authentic than the WSM these days. WSM used to have a bunch of good people involved but it seems like there is something rotten there somewhere because all the good ones always seemed to leave after a bit.

McAliskey was always being tarred as a 'Republican' but it always seemed to me that was just a convenient way for people who didn't like her to dismiss her. She seems fairly alright on a lot of actual working class issues.

 

[nuke terrorist]

WSM and Organise are both alright really, in my opinion, but it's definitely the case that Organise seem much more authentic than the WSM these days. WSM used to have a bunch of good people involved but it seems like there is something rotten there somewhere because all the good ones always seemed to leave after a bit.

McAliskey was always being tarred as a 'Republican' but it always seemed to me that was just a convenient way for people who didn't like her to dismiss her. She seems fairly alright on a lot of actual working class issues.

of course I have no lived experience of being a Catholic woman from Derry born in 1947.
mostly Bernardette is sound but some stuff she says had its day a long time ago and doesn't seem relevant to the current world.
if she had grown up in the Republic she might not have got the education she earned.

basically all I am saying is if you put national liberation stuff into politics it does the working class no good
e.g. Republic of Ireland.
religion has been used as a proxy for all kinds oppression. working class people, especially Unionists get terrible political representation.

I have totally lost touch with what WSM are up BUT - WSM usually seem to work on issues that need attention urgently and that's what the Civil Rights folks did.

again I am totally open to changing my mind on things.