General election 2020 (2 Viewers)

[Lili Marlene]

Jesus Christ, Citizen's Assemblies are such scams.

 

[therealjohnny]

Jesus Christ, Citizen's Assemblies are such scams.

I always picture this

 

[Cormcolash]

Our choices seem to be a) climate policy that doesn't reduce inequality or b) no climate policy at all. From those I'll take a)

Yeah but the point is, I reckon a) basically equates to no climate policy at all, because rich people/companies/manufacturers etc etc will just take the piss with their emissions if they can just keep shunting it on to poorer people, ya know like has already been happening for the last 10+ years anyway

 

[ann post]

Any climate policy that isn't a bunch of greenwashing shit reduces long term inequalities by default.

Also those are options rather than choices

 

[egg_]

Jesus Christ, Citizen's Assemblies are such scams.

Why do you say that? I thought it was a citizen's assembly that made repealing the 8th politically possible

 

[ann post]

Didn't we already have one of those?

Recommendations on how the State can make Ireland a leader in tackling climate change - The Citizens' Assembly

There is something else scheduled for this term that they keep kicking down the road - and you also asked me about the changes to the climate bill - I'd house guests but I actually have to check both those things for work and will drop them here when i find them in a few days.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Why do you say that? I thought it was a citizen's assembly that made repealing the 8th politically possible

They're fundamentally undemocratic and anti-political, reinforcing the idea that elections are a scam and those in power are not there to represent the people electing them because important decisions cannot, should not, be made by them.

In a realpolitik way, yeah it allowed the 8th to be repealed and thats a good thing and I'm glad it happened, but it also gave FFG cover from having to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't want more of them.

 

[ann post]

A citizens assembly on climate is a bit silly to be fair, it's a bit like and further version of politicians kicking the can along to have say 50% climate science vs 50% lobbyists and deniers come to conclusions because the planet does not give one fuck about what we *think*.

I do think the model is good though for the more societal stuff - In ireland:

campaigns, citizens assembly, referendum announcement (2 years roughly)

vs

UK (i.e. brexit).

referendum announcement, campaigns, fallout assembly (3 months roughly)

I mean the UK isn't a benchmark for shit, i just makes this particular thing look better.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Yeah I'd buy that one for now, we should be shooting for better though imho

 

[Cormcolash]

Put me in charge and you'll see some good shooting

 

[ernesto]

I mean the UK isn't a benchmark for shit, i just makes this particular thing look better.

Doesn't the uk run on 100% renewable energy or something?

 

[ernesto]

Doesn't the uk run on 100% renewable energy or something?

no it does not.

however, the uk are pretty good at the old wind energy

UK ranked fifth-best country for renewable deployment - Energy Live News

The US has held its place at the top of the global ranking, while China remains in the second spot, according to EY's Renewable Energy Country Attractiveness Index

www.energylivenews.com

 

[egg_]

They're fundamentally undemocratic and anti-political, reinforcing the idea that elections are a scam and those in power are not there to represent the people electing them because important decisions cannot, should not, be made by them.

Yikes ... I'm not really sure I understand. You seem to be saying they're undemocratic because they take the responsibility for decision making away from politicians, but they don't do that (scratches head)

A citizens assembly on climate is a bit silly to be fair, it's a bit like and further version of politicians kicking the can along to have say 50% climate science vs 50% lobbyists and deniers come to conclusions

That's not what happened the previous one - the recommendations that came out of it were pretty strong Recommendations on how the State can make Ireland a leader in tackling climate change - The Citizens' Assembly

I think they're most valuable when they demonstrate to politicians that The People support things that the politicians are afraid of - e.g. abortion, or a carbon tax. For less controversial stuff, like the gender equality one, I think they're kind pointless

 

[Lili Marlene]

Yikes ... I'm not really sure I understand. You seem to be saying they're undemocratic because they take the responsibility for decision making away from politicians, but they don't do that (scratches head)

Ok, technically correct and fair point, they do not write or legislate themselves, and this was proven when the Irish government ignored their unanimous recommendations over the 8th amendment and went with something much more conservative. This isn't exactly a point in their favour though, it just shows that they're another expert group, or non-expert group I guess, that can be referred to or ignored as you see fit.

That's not what happened the previous one - the recommendations that came out of it were pretty strong Recommendations on how the State can make Ireland a leader in tackling climate change - The Citizens' Assembly

I think they're most valuable when they demonstrate to politicians that The People support things that the politicians are afraid of - e.g. abortion, or a carbon tax. For less controversial stuff, like the gender equality one, I think they're kind pointless

What this demonstrates is that you don't believe in democracy in Ireland because you think the politicians in a representative democracy to not represent the people who elect them, and you wouldn't be alone. There's a good piece here in Politico here that goes into this, showing that a citizens assembly in Ireland makes sense in that very circumstance, after 2008 the people of Ireland did not trust their politicians.

The myth of the citizens’ assembly

It worked in Ireland but it won’t solve Brexit.

www.politico.eu

I'm sympathetic to the idea that you have a specific end goal and you aim to get there by any means necessary and you'll take a citizens assembly if offered, hell I would, but the idea that it's in some way better or preferable to the system that we have in place doesn't make sense to me. Once again, I say we should aim higher.

 

[ann post]

So what your saying is that we should have a citizens assemble about citizens assemblies?

 

[Lili Marlene]

I think what i'm saying is, weirdly, that I actually agree with egg, just from a different angle.

 

[egg_]

I think what i'm saying is, weirdly, that I actually agree with egg, just from a different angle.

Haha

What this demonstrates is that you don't believe in democracy in Ireland because you think the politicians in a representative democracy to not represent the people who elect them, and you wouldn't be alone.

Well ... I don't really have any opinion on democracy in the abstract, but in any community - whether that's a country or the wiki communities where I work - it's difficult to avoid the loudest voices setting agendas, and ultimately driving policy. Citizen's Assemblies by themselves don't change that, but they're one of the only readily-available tools I know of that can mitigate it

(and FWIW I obvs agree with politico that obstacles to participation (like money and childcare) need to be addressed so that the assemblies are real representative samples of the population)

 

[Cormcolash]

I think we should get @Pete to moderate the video conference for the next Citizens Assembly

 

[ann post]

• They fixed the roads here
• MM has announced a massive amount of spending on housing
• FFG starting to really fucking throw shitballs at each other
• Open everything especially the GAA

Are we looking at the seeds of the next election campaign?

 

[magicbastarder]

hmm. true?

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