Coronavirus: Better Call Sol - CORONAMANIA (27 Viewers)

This is interesting. @Lili Marlene was it you that mentioned that this could potentially all be expedited by waiving IP and allowing generic production of vaccines? Apologies if it wasn't you. Regardless, seems it wouldn't be so straightforward.

Interesting but I'm not convinced, this is just blinding us with science. Nothing is ever simple in its execution, duh.

If he wants to tell us that India is a backwards nation with stupid people who aren't capable of manufacturing complex things like us clever westerners he should just go out and say that (we had to destroy fifteen million doses because we made mistakes and we're white!) . They want to make their own vaccines for themselves and we should let them, otherwise all those deaths are on us. If we don't trust the dirty foreigners to make them correctly for us then we don't have to import the generic versions.

By way of comparison, they said the very same thing about AIDS/HIV drugs,that it would be impossible to make these for cheap, and they kept on saying it right up until it was proven possible. It went from more than 10 thousand dollars per person per year to a dollar a day and it was fought every step of the way by the drugs companies. Bit of history on it here:


and some contemporary reporting:

 
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Is rheumatoid arthritis killing 3,500 people a day in India?
Not only is RA a hugely debilitating disease, it can trigger other more serious disorders (including neurodegeneration) and potentially could be amplifying the effects of infections as these patients already have a ramped up inflammatory response. So no it’s not killing 3,500 people a day in India, but it’s still pretty serious. Next question.
 
I'm not suggesting it's not serious, but the letter writer seems to be implying its treatment should take precedence over covid treatment, and that it's an either/or situation. Maybe it it is? Maybe that's the only factory in the world making that particular drug? I do not know.

edit: apparently not

 
If he wants to tell us that India is a backwards nation with stupid people who aren't capable of manufacturing complex things like us clever westerners he should just go out and say that (we had to destroy fifteen million doses because we made mistakes and we're white!)
Oh ffs @Lili Marlene you can't go calling someone a racist just because he disagrees with you

afaics what he's saying is the bottleneck is manufacturing capacity with adequate quality control, not rules about IP.
 
Oh ffs @Lili Marlene you can't go calling someone a racist just because he disagrees with you

afaics what he's saying is the bottleneck is manufacturing capacity with adequate quality control, not rules about IP.
Yes Egg, I can, because what I am doing is parsing his polite, oh-so-reasonable, words for what is actually being said there, whether he knows it or not. Then i'm using hyperbole for the laugh because it's thumped and I can always rely on you to get wound up by it.
 
what I am doing is parsing his polite, oh-so-reasonable, words for what is actually being said there
No, you're twisting his words to make him seem like a bad person, simply because he disagrees with you

I can always rely on you to get wound up by it
Haha ok, yes, yes you can <3
 
No, you're twisting his words to make him seem like a bad person, simply because he disagrees with you
No i'm not, i'm attacking his argument. His argument is racist (one Indian drug company is considered bad by, uh, the USA, therefore all Indian drug companies are the same) and i'm extrapolating why using genuine, recognized, rhetorical devices rather than going through it line by line and boring everyone to death. I never said he was a bad person but if his racist argument makes him seem like a bad person then maybe he ought to think about that.

Shit, I mean look at this,

Johnson & Johnson Fined $70 Million for Bribing Doctors

Why are we allowing Johnson & Johnson to make a vaccine when they are clearly crooks? Hell, why are we allowing any US company to make a vaccine since all American drug companies are the same?
 
No i'm not, i'm attacking his argument ... extrapolating why using genuine, recognized, rhetorical devices
Hmmm ok ... seems to me you're taking what he says in bad faith, but I guess that's the done thing when it comes to rhetoric. I still don't know though - is IP really the bottleneck? Or is it manufacturing capacity? How can I tell if everyone is just trying to trick me into agreeing with them?
 
Hmmm ok ... seems to me you're taking what he says in bad faith, but I guess that's the done thing when it comes to rhetoric. I still don't know though - is IP really the bottleneck? Or is it manufacturing capacity? How can I tell if everyone is just trying to trick me into agreeing with them?
But his argument (as printed) is either lazily made or made in bad faith - if we repurpose this one Irish factory to make COVID vaccine, then others will suffer, therefore no factories should be repurposed?
 
Hmmm ok ... seems to me you're taking what he says in bad faith, but I guess that's the done thing when it comes to rhetoric. I still don't know though - is IP really the bottleneck? Or is it manufacturing capacity? How can I tell if everyone is just trying to trick me into agreeing with them?
I am not saying he's making the argument in bad faith, he might be, he might have all sorts of connections to the pharmaceutical industry (I quickly looked him up and it's unclear) but i'm assuming he doesn't.

However, one should assume that the pharma industry is working in bad faith. The AIDs/HIV example above being a good indicator of how they work. They will pay any amount of money to get any study that just coincidentally proves that keeping money flowing into their bank accounts is the best, most moral way of doing everything.

You're a good person, this guy is probably a good person, these companies are not. They are cynical, cynical actors. Just look up the "controversies" section on every single one of their wiki pages. These companies will always take advantage of anyone who works on the assumption that no-one could possibly choose profit over hurting people, that would be immoral!

This guy is either naive or a paid stooge as far as i'm concerned. Call me cynical, sure, I am, we need to harden the fuck up when dealing with this kind of thing.
 
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are the 'tradtional' vaccines (i.e. not the fancypants mRNA ones) fairly similar to make to your average flu vaccine?

re arguing against IP laws because the pharma companies are immoral; that's also the stance the letter writer takes at one point.
 
Interesting but I'm not convinced, this is just blinding us with science. Nothing is ever simple in its execution, duh.

If he wants to tell us that India is a backwards nation with stupid people who aren't capable of manufacturing complex things like us clever westerners he should just go out and say that (we had to destroy fifteen million doses because we made mistakes and we're white!) . They want to make their own vaccines for themselves and we should let them, otherwise all those deaths are on us. If we don't trust the dirty foreigners to make them correctly for us then we don't have to import the generic versions.

By way of comparison, they said the very same thing about AIDS/HIV drugs,that it would be impossible to make these for cheap, and they kept on saying it right up until it was proven possible. It went from more than 10 thousand dollars per person per year to a dollar a day and it was fought every step of the way by the drugs companies. Bit of history on it here:


and some contemporary reporting:

thats not really how I interpreted the letter. I didn't detect any racist undertones. I mean, the thing he said about that company in India being fined is either true or it isn't. Also, other than the EU, India are the only country manufacturing vaccines for export to the entire world. I would have assumed that was assumed knowledge when reading.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just naive.
 
But for all you know he could be right. You're arguing against IP laws because you think the pharma companies are immoral, not because you have a clear understanding of the effect that will have on vaccine supply
Wrong, for all I know it is much more likely that he is incorrect.

As for you telling me what it is that I think, incorrect again, I don't think these companies are immoral, I think they are amoral. These companies exist to make money, they have shareholder meetings where they say this constantly.
Thats not really how I interpreted the letter. I didn't detect any racist undertones. I mean, the thing he said about that company in India being fined is either true or it isn't. Also, other than the EU, India are the only country manufacturing vaccines for export to the entire world. I would have assumed that was assumed knowledge when reading.
I dunno. Maybe I'm just naive.Do I need to print out the "controversies"
You can do whatever you want. I already spelled out my position multiple times, you don't have to believe me.
 
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This is interesting. @Lili Marlene was it you that mentioned that this could potentially all be expedited by waiving IP and allowing generic production of vaccines? Apologies if it wasn't you. Regardless, seems it wouldn't be so straightforward.

Far as I can see the letter is basically making a false equivalency between generic drugs and vaccine manufacturing.
The generic drugs necessarily have slightly different formula/makeup for the very reason that big pharma won't let go of the IP rights, so 'generic' manufacturers are forced to make something that might have a different level of effectiveness but doesn't involve just giving all the money that buys them to one pharma giant.
The suggestion of negating IP rights for life-saving vaccines would allow 'generic' companies to make the actual same vaccine that the big pharma companies are already making, so to suggest they might have a different level of efficacy seems fairly nonsensical.
It's blatantly obvious than no pharma-giant would be in favour of relinquishing IP rights, as its where they make their profits. It seems to me also quite likely that the person behind this letter is 'sponsored' in some way by one or more of the big pharma companies to recommend or use their products.

Here's a good example of what happens when governments let big pharma companies basically set their own prices; the 'insulin companies' in the US ruining lives and actually killing people with their price-fixing. They don't care about people at all, the big multi-nationals are simply there for profit.

 
not because you have a clear understanding of the effect that will have on vaccine supply
Well, relinquishing the IP rights of all the covid vaccines worldwide could only have the effect of increasing vaccine supply as more agencies will start to manufacture them.
The only way it would decrease vaccine supply would be if the companies currently making the vaccines deliberately stop manufacturing them if they become less profitable.
 

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