Referendum 2012: It's On (1 Viewer)

How will you vote in the Fiscal Stability Treaty Referendum 2012

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • No

    Votes: 9 69.2%
  • Abstaining

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Spoiling vote

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
Public Meeting

Why you should vote NO to austerity

Sean O'Casey Community Centre, St Marys Road, East Wall, Dublin 3.

Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 8:00 p.m.

Speakers: Thomas Pringle TD

Councillor Cieran Perry

Local Community Activists.



Waterford - 24 May 2012

People's Movement
Public Meeting
Why you should vote NO to austerity
Park Hotel
Thursday, 24 May 2012, 8:00 p.m.
Speakers: John Halligan TD
Patricia McKenna
Kevin McCorry

Kilkenny - 23 May 2012

People's Movement
Public Meeting
Why you should vote NO to austerity
Club House Hotel
Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 8:00 p.m.
Speakers: Patricia McKenna
Kevin McCorry

Ballymun, Dublin - 23 May 2012

Ballymun Whitehall Area Partnership
Public Debate
Axis Theatre, Ballymun
Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 7:30 p.m.
Speakers: Mick O'Reilly
Blair Horan

Donnycarney, Dublin - 22 May 2012

People's Movement
Public Meeting
Why you should vote NO!
'Le Chéile' youth and community centre, Donnycarney
Tuesday, 22 May 2012, 7:30 p.m.
Speakers: Thomas Pringle TD
Patricia McKenna
Chair: Finian McGrath TD

Dublin - 22 May 2012

In association with the Ireland Institute
Public Meeting
Why you should vote NO!
Ireland Institute, 27 Pearse Street
Tuesday, 22 May 2012, 7:30 p.m.
Speakers: Robert Ballagh
Mick O'Reilly

Carlow - 22 May 2012

People's Movement
Public Meeting
Why you should vote NO to austerity
Reddy's
Tuesday, 22 May 2012, 8:00 p.m.
Speakers: Patricia McKenna
Kevin McCorry

Newcastle West, Co. Limerick - 21 May 2012

Citizens against Charges
Public Meeting
Why you should vote NO to austerity
Monday, 21 May 2012, 8:00 p.m.
Speakers: Kevin McCorry
Martin Ferris TD
Kieran Allen
 
Is it a crime for ordinary people to buy? Was it a crime to feel that it was time to buy? All of the media were blaring out that house prices were going to rise, rise, rise.

How many of the middleclass did you observe? Only a tiny percentage of ordinary people partied. I'm talking about nurses, teachers, civil servants, technicians.

People did care, the Left raised it but were ignored. Ordinary people didn't cause this crisis. The we all partied line is used by the spindoctors of the rich. Don't fall for it.

Make the rich pay.

The political system allowed O'Reilly to own so many papers, ordinary people didn't. Voters elected TDs, how many peoplke said: make sure O'Reilly controls all the papers?

Not just the Indo & herald, also the Sindo & Sunday World and a host of regional papers. All of those were pushing the message that house prices would always go up and Bertie was King. The Irish Times criticised bertie but even it was muted on house prices.

On RTE & TV3 the vast majority of pundits pushed a certain line. Only an isolated few suggested the bubble would burst.

Given this surround of opinion, people weren't stupid, they were systematically starved of alternative opinions.

You seem to enjoy the idea of ordinary people suffering under the jackboot of Berlin and Brussells.

Wouldn't it be better and fairer if the rich paid more?

I actually had a couple of parties. I was quite drunk for extended periods.

It's all my fault.
 
People could have rented. No one forced anyone to buy.

The middle class partied like motherfuckers. I saw them.

Listen, I'm for the Tribunals. Money well spent. My point about them is that no one paid attention to them.
There was no outrage. Everyone's marching on the Dail and righteously outraged now when it's hitting them in the pocket. They didn't care when we were on easy street.

By 'all the media' you must mean the Indo and Herald, then fine, we have an electorate operating at the behest of Tony O'Reilly. Which is the same as saying people that are too stupid to govern themselves.
Is it a crime for ordinary people to buy? Was it a crime to feel that it was time to buy? All of the media were blaring out that house prices were going to rise, rise, rise.

How many of the middleclass did you observe? Only a tiny percentage of ordinary people partied. I'm talking about nurses, teachers, civil servants, technicians.

People did care, the Left raised it but were ignored. Ordinary people didn't cause this crisis. The we all partied line is used by the spindoctors of the rich. Don't fall for it.

Make the rich pay.

The political system allowed O'Reilly to own so many papers, ordinary people didn't. Voters elected TDs, how many peoplke said: make sure O'Reilly controls all the papers?

Not just the Indo & herald, also the Sindo & Sunday World and a host of regional papers. All of those were pushing the message that house prices would always go up and Bertie was King. The Irish Times criticised bertie but even it was muted on house prices.

On RTE & TV3 the vast majority of pundits pushed a certain line. Only an isolated few suggested the bubble would burst.

Given this surround of opinion, people weren't stupid, they were systematically starved of alternative opinions.

You seem to enjoy the idea of ordinary people suffering under the jackboot of Berlin and Brussells.

Wouldn't it be better and fairer if the rich paid more?

I actually had a couple of parties. I was quite drunk for extended periods.

It's all my fault.
 
How many of the middleclass did you observe? Only a tiny percentage of ordinary people partied. I'm talking about nurses, teachers, civil servants, technicians.

People did care, the Left raised it but were ignored. Ordinary people didn't cause this crisis. The we all partied line is used by the spindoctors of the rich. Don't fall for it.

oh puhleeease. irish people, regardless of their career or social background were fucking caning it for 5 or 6 years backin the hey-day. technicians? teachers? civil servants? NURSES? i know nurses laden with 3 gaffs wondering where it all went wrong- there is no doubt the state and commercial institutions (developers/banks/media) created a frenzy but we were all more than happy to join in.
 
oh puhleeease. irish people, regardless of their career or social background were fucking caning it for 5 or 6 years backin the hey-day. technicians? teachers? civil servants? NURSES? i know nurses laden with 3 gaffs wondering where it all went wrong- there is no doubt the state and commercial institutions (developers/banks/media) created a frenzy but we were all more than happy to join in.

I didn't join in. I bought my gaff last year in Spencer Dock, qualified for affordable housing so got it for €115,000, market price would have been approx €140-145,000. In 2007 they were going for €290,000. AAAAH HAAAhH HAAA! (Dances jig.)
 
What is this ESM bail-out fund?

An introduction to the ESM

The European Stability Mechanism is a crisis fund that comes at the price of €11 billion for Ireland, that EU countries will be able to gain access to should they ratify the Fiscal Treaty. But will it be a handy insurance policy for Ireland - or an economic straitjacket?

The European Stability Mechanism (ESM), also known as “the secret treaty”, is part of an overwhelming bunch of initiatives designed by the EU to stabilise the euro.

Essentially, the ESM is a new bail-out fund designed to supply loans to countries in two situations:

(1) where they find themselves in danger of a default, or

(2) where they are found to be in an economic situation that threatens the stability of the euro zone as a whole.

The ESM will be a permanent replacement for an existing temporary fund, the European Financial Stability Fund. The EFSF, which will expire by June 2013, holds €500 billion. The ESM will initially hold €700 billion.

How did it come about?

The ESM is connected to the Fiscal Stablity Treaty, which is the subject of a referendum in Ireland.

Access to the ESM has been made contingent on the ratification of the Fiscal Stability Treaty, thus increasing the pressure on governments to ratify.

But the ESM is a separate entity based on a two-line amendment of the Lisbon Treaty, which was decided by an EU summit on 16 December 2010, and an intergovernmental treaty specifying working mechanism and procedures.

Where does the money come from?

The ESM will build its capital stock from contributions from the euro countries and from capital already invested in the existing EFSF. Ireland is to contribute €11,145,400,000 to the initial capital.

Like other countries in financial troubles, Ireland will have to supply a portion of this amount in cash, whereas triple-A rated countries like Germany can make do with guarantees.

The ESM can decide to increase the total capital stock (or speed up the contributions of the initial capital) if needed. The Irish Government will then be obliged to “meet all capital calls on a timely basis in accordance with the terms set out in this Treaty.” This increase of capital stock can become relevant if a bail-out of one of the euro zone’s larger economies, such as that of Spain or Italy, becomes necessary some day.

Votes

Ireland is to cover 1.59 per cent of all capital stock in the ESM fund, and votes on the ESM board will be distributed in accordance with this percentage.

A “qualified majority” is needed to make most decisions concerning the programmes and management of the fund. Germany, with 27 per cent of the votes, is the only country that can veto these majority decisions by itself.

The decision to initiate a bail-out programme in any of the member-countries will be taken by the ESM’s Board of Governors. The ESM Treaty does not specify the exact conditions under which its programmes will be initiated, leaving room for political decisions.

6 QUESTIONS & ANSWERS

1. Is the ESM the same as the Fiscal Stability Treaty?
2. Will there be a referendum in Ireland on the ESM?
3. How much money will Ireland have to contribute to the fund?
4. Who is in charge of the ESM?
5. What are the conditions of the bail-out programmes?
6. Will Ireland have access to loans if the Fiscal Stability Treaty is not ratified?

1. Is the ESM the same as the Fiscal Stability Treaty?

No, the ESM (European Stability Mechanism) is a separate legal body, with its own separate treaty. All euro countries will become members of the ESM if they ratify the ESM Treaty. To obtain access to the ESM crisis fund a country must also ratify the Fiscal Stability Treaty.

The ESM Treaty is not yet ratified and the rescue fund will only come into existence if at least 90 per cent of the initial paid in capital stock is provided by the member countries.

2. Will there be a referendum in Ireland on the ESM?

No, the Government has no plan to put the ESM Treaty to a referendum. The ESM has, however, been challenged by a member of the Dáil, Thomas Pringle. The outcome of this challenge is not yet known, but one of the demands is that the ESM should be put to a referendum.

3. How much money will Ireland have to contribute to the fund?

Ireland is to provide 1.59 per cent of the initial paid-in capital stock in the ESM fund. The total amount of capital stock will be €700 billion. This includes the €500 billion capital stock of the EFSF that is to be transferred to the ESM.

Ireland will be called upon to supply five payments, each consisting of €237 million, over the first two years after the ESM comes into effect. This amounts to a total of €11,145,000,000. Should the ESM require more money at some point, Ireland is obliged to pay 1.59 per cent of that amount when called upon.

4.Who is in charge of the ESM?

A Board of Governors drawn from each member-country will be in charge of the ESM. Decisions on the basic workings of the ESM, and the decision to make a call for extra capital, will be decided unanimously. Decisions on loans and bail-out programmes will be taken by a qualified majority (80 per cent of the votes).

Votes will be distributed according to the amount of capital stock supplied. Ireland will therefore hold 1.59 per cent of the votes. France will have 20 per cent and Germany 27 per cent.

5. What are the conditions of the bail-out programmes?

In the preamble to the ESM Treaty it is clearly stated that “the granting of any required financial assistance under the mechanism will be made subject to strict conditionality.” The ESM Board of Governors, consisting of representatives from each of the member-countries, will decide in principle whether a loan can be granted.

The exact conditions will then be negotiated in what is called a “memorandum of understanding” drawn up by the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund.

One condition would be the “macro-economic adjustment programme” mentioned in the treaty. It is up to the ESM to specify the exact adjustments needed in the programme countries’ financial policies. Any part of a country’s financial policies can in theory be included in such a programme.

6. Will Ireland have access to loans if the Fiscal Stability Treaty is not ratified?

Ireland’s existing loan or bail-out options are not directly affected by the Fiscal Treaty or the ESM Treaty. Ireland will not have access to loans from the ESM in the event that the Fiscal Stability Treaty is not ratified [however, the ESM itself - which is the heart of the Fiscal Treaty - is subject to veto by Ireland; O.O'C. ]. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) would still accept an application, and the granting of a loan would not be ruled out in case of a second Irish bail-out.

http://www.irishreferendum.org
 
I didn't join in. I bought my gaff last year in Spencer Dock, qualified for affordable housing so got it for €115,000, market price would have been approx €140-145,000. In 2007 they were going for €290,000. AAAAH HAAAhH HAAA! (Dances jig.)

fair play to you. one of the few who could see that there was no value to be had in the prperty market then, and still barely is now. i missed most of the mayhem, and when i moved back to ireland in 2006 it blew my mind to see what was going on, from an 'outsiders' perspective.
 
Article 136 TFEU amendment, the ESM and the Fiscal Compact Treaty

Here we go again. Do what you are told by government.

Presently we are being given a referendum on the 'Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union', ( the Fiscal Compact Treaty), this treaty lays out the 'conditions' of receiving a bailout from the European Stabilty Mechanism, which so far we are not being given a referendum on. These 3 aspects are inextricably intertwined, with the ESM being the mechanism, the article 136 TEFU amendment the instrument being used to enable the ESM to have a legal basis, while the fiscal compact treaty sets out the conditions for accessing finance through the ESM.

There are in fact 3 different aspects, only the last of which we are allowed a say on:
1. The article 136 TFEU amendment to the treaties.

2. The ESM treaty
3. The Fiscal Compact Treaty.

...

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101741
 
the literature the govt have pumped in my letterbox is biased towards a yes. i didnt vote for those guys in the first place so i'm looking harder at a no vote than a yes vote.

Are fine geal really thick by the way?
 
the literature the govt have pumped in my letterbox is biased towards a yes. i didnt vote for those guys in the first place so i'm looking harder at a no vote than a yes vote.

Are fine geal really thick by the way?

Much as I lust after Lucinda, yes she is thick. Michael Noonan is like the mad uncle you keep in the attic and Enda suffers from little man complex, hence his need to climb every mountain. I'm sure Frances Fitzgerald means well but when do you hear from her?

FG aren't totally dumb though: they know enough to keep Phil Hogan hidden for the duration of the campaign. Hes beem silenced and sent on retreat.
 
I think we have to vote No on this and would be extremely foolish not to.

A lot of whats in the treaty makes sense, but not (from my gombeen understanding of it) all of it and not how its being laid out. If we vote No then we can be sure there'll be a second vote in due course (Richard Bruton confirmed this last week). But the second vote will be following a 'visit' from the heads of Europe to Ireland to see why we're unhappy with it, and how we can be appeased. In the meantime it'll become clearer as what Hollande's take on things are and whether the treaty we're signing up to is going to prove little more than a shackle for Ireland while the rest of Europe gets on with their recovery.

Because thats what it is - a set of shackles to prevent us ever getting ahead of our station again. And there is merit to that, but what if theres a growth spurt in the European economy? If the treaty is in then austerity will continue.

There has to be a time limit or a getout clause on whats being proposed. We're voting 6 months too soon and we're voting on something that we can get a better deal on.

So I'll be voting No for now and yes when the new and improved terms are put to us in November when (hopefully) it gets defeated.
 
FG aren't totally dumb though: they know enough to keep Phil Hogan hidden for the duration of the campaign. Hes beem silenced and sent on retreat.

They're mostly dumb. Absolute morons the lot of them.

I saw Leo Varadkar the other week out campaigning. I was so tempted to go up to him and ask him was it the 'undemocratic' treaty he was campaigning for or was it something else. He had a lovely bird with him though so I didn't want to look an arse in front of her. Plus Leo is a big man and would probably kick the shit out of me.

Any why is it that TDs always have henchmen that wear the scruffiest suits you ever saw, have enormous bellies, and never wear ties or brush their hair? Leo had a few of these with him. I go by Conor Lenihans gaff every day on the way to/from work and he always had a load waiting for him every morning. Dunno who they are but they need to scrub up a bit.

Bring back the rides
 
even damien dempsey wants us to vote no, in his endearingly 'at gunpoint' styled vblog.

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the reason i ask if fine geal are really thick is that they either are toeing the line with the germans in order to get the cool euro quango jobs after we burn down mayo, or they actually know that by campaigning for a yes they are polarising and strengthening the no camp in a classic case of reverse psychology.

I'm thinking 'no' this time and 'resounding celebratory yes' next time.
 
Given the way the discussion has gone, I think this fits in here.

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i watched that years ago. if every 2 months someone recommends it to me, and then yesterday three people shared the lionel richie meme on fb, without any reference to the long available teapot and cup set. seriously, catch up with the fucking internet.
 
i watched that years ago. if every 2 months someone recommends it to me, and then yesterday three people shared the lionel richie meme on fb, without any reference to the long available teapot and cup set. seriously, catch up with the fucking internet.

I know its relatively old but some people here wouldn't have seen it, the young folk. The consumption culture mind control is relevant to the partying aspect of this discussion.

I always love the Psycho-Analysts Ball bit, even some patients attend! Some complex dances there.
 
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